Do You Use a Hot Stick?
 

We had the vet out last week for spring shots, fly tags and pour on. Cows went in the alley then just stood there and watched us...really didn't want to go into the chute. Vet said my cows are "too tame". Of course he said that just before one of the older cows climed over and out of the corral w/10' high panels! :eek: He got a hot stick out of his truck and zapped one or two to move them along. This always seems to panic the cows and make them hard to handle after they are zapped. I wouldn't call my cows tame....we bought them young and they grew up here and we kept a few of their heifers. They basically have the good life just grazing and they get some cubes once in awhile. The bull is a Red Poll and he too has a very calm nature. :cow:

Is there a better way to move them through the alley into the chute without using a hot stick? :help:

I only use a hot stick when I absolutely have to.

Can you redesign your chute some? In mine about 1/3rd way down there is a bump pole which the cows have to push to the side. Once past it springs back, keeping them from backing out of the corral. At the end of the corral is a self-catching headgate. Hard to explain but on each side of the chute by the headgate I have metal stubs. If I can get a t-post behind the cow, they can be moved forward using the bar.

Since it is me, with my neighbor's help, we don't try to cowboy them. They will eventually go down the chute and get caught. With a vet, likely they want to get the job done fast.

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They do no have all day to do a small job.

He has other jobs to do and there are just so many hours in a day.
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I think I'd turn the hot stick on the vet. Those things really hurt. He had no right to do that without your permission.

My cows move with Just tapping (not hard,) them on the backside with a stick to get them moving and then on their back close to their tail,

I don't use them and don't even own one but I do recommend spending time with your cattle putting them through the alley and chute quietly every once in a while when you are not treating them or working them in any way. I find if you do, when you need to put them through, there are far less problems.

I think cows who are handled alot will respond to a tap. But I keep a hotshot just in case they backup on you. 10 years ago I was loading 5 calves in my trailer, and the front one wouldn't get in , they backed up fast and one kicked me in the shin. I still have the scar and went out and bought a hotshot the next day. If you try and round up calves or work them , I think they just don't know what's expected of them and sometimes you have to help them along. I don't use mine alot but sometimes you need to get the momentum going!!

We do have 2 of the preifert no-backs in our alley....so once they start down it there's no backing out...we learned that early on! We also do have a self-catching gate....so once they move forward their caught and DH slides a bar behind that one so it can't kick or move.

I think you hit the nail on the head....the vet was in a hurry..as usual and didn't want to spend much time with these girls....I guess he like them running and crashing into everything. I know he is a busy man...but I pay $40 for the trip charge and his visit this trip cost me $350....so guess he should learn to enjoy working with some cows that aren't so wild. DH usually just gives them a poke or a slap on the behind and they move along. On this particular day....they were enjoying the attention. Their attitude does remind me of those California "happy cows" you see on TV!

Well..thanks for the input...it's nice to know that there are others that don't feel it is necessary to zap their cattle to work them. :)

We once had a beautiful Brown Swiss/Holstien bottle baby heifer. We raised her till she was 2 and when she still showed no signs of breeding, we got smart and had the vet out. Yep, a freemartin. We *couldn't* eat our lovely Hershey. So we took her to the sale and sent her through with the info that she was a freemartin and only sold for meat. She walked nicely into the ring and then just wanted to stand there and lick the ringmans shirt. He wanted her to walk, so he stuck her with a hotshot. And continued to jab her with it until she would run around the ring to be seen. I was furious. At the time I was too young to think about telling him what I thought and just walked out steaming. :flame: :flame: :flame: He would not get off so nicely if it happened now.
There is a time and place for hotshots. But to use them just because you can?? I find that offensive and cruel. :flame:

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A hot stick is not all that bad and it won't hurt them either.

It's no different than getting a shock from an electric fence shocker.

bumpus

BJ, why do you hire the vet to do these routine tasks?

in my area shockers are used all the time. It does not hurt them, and how do you have 10 foot high panels that wont hold a cow? If you use the shocker on them every now and then they will learn to respect it and move away. At our farm we keep the broken shockers and the cows move when you "shock" them. The cows know when someone new is around and when you call a vet to do the work they are in charge most of the time unless you want to do the work. They dont know your cattle and dont want you or your cattle to get hurt.

Right, its not any worse than an electric fence shock.....but the electric fence doesn't follow them around and shock them for no reason.....which is what the ringman did to Hershey. Like I said, a time and a place.

If you all think the hot shots don't hurt, I suggest you nail yourself with one. They sure as heck DO hurt. My stepdad used to get a rise out of shocking us just for kicks. I would never use one on an animal unless there was no other choice.

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Good Vets don't have all day to play huggy, huggy,
and kissy, kissy, with livestock.

They have other work to do for other customers, and if you could do the job the VET would not be there.

Worse thing you could do is try to tell a VET how to do there job.

The next time you call them they might tell you to do it yourself, becasuse you know more than they do.
I know I would.
But if you do know more then you don't need them do you.

Who is the doctor her anyway ?

Same way I train a new goat about an electric fence.

I grab them by the horns and stick them ( head and body ) into the electric fence 3 or 4 times and turn them loose, and they don't want to play with the fence or jump it.

If they get out I stick it to them again and they soon learn.

End of problem, and it does not take all day.

If you have a goat that jumps fences, I can break them real quick.

bumpus
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The ring man knew what he was doing, but you didn't.

He makes the animal move for the buyers who want to see if the animal is healthy and they want to see all sides of the animal as they bid.

They know what people want, and that is an animal that can move fast and has no flaws, and they know what the buyers want, and they want it out of the ring fast for the next animal.

They do not have all day to fool around with one animal, and get and keep its attention, and the customers doing the bidding attention.

bumpus
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I don't spend days and weeks working to tame my animals down and not to traumatize them, just for a stranger with a degree to come over and treat them in a way I would never! It isn't like I baby my animals, either -I don't. I just don't feel that any person has a right to abuse or frighten my animals without my consent. I don't care if it's a visiting child running around chasing the goat kids, an acquaintance or friend kicking my dog out of their way because they're impatient, or a vet being unecessarily rough and shocking them for no good reason.

It isn't like he was working for free. Did you see how much they had to pay him??? For that price, he could practice his customer service skills a bit.

A good vet?? Bumpus -- me and you would have a Major problem in a hurry---
My cows are my income and they WILL be treated as such---my vet is smart enough to know that.

Bumpus, you got a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine. I am not a stranger to the auction and I know *exactly* why the cows are moved around the ring. Don't assume I am ignorant. I also know that the heifer would have moved with a slap to the rump. And as I said, he was *uneccesary* forceful with the hotshot. Taking to much time has nothing to do with it, having 0 respect for the animal has everything to do with it. Same goes for the goat auction ringman who takes scared kids who are huddled in a corner and flips them over his head and into the middle of the ring *by their ears*. Unacceptable behavior and I won't have it done with my animals.
I repeat, A TIME AND A PLACE.

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If it takes an electric hot shot to get the job done that is what I would do,
and I have done it before.

But Like I said before also.
If your way is the best way for you,
I would say have a nice day, and don't call me again to waist my time.

bumpus
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I do believe thats what I've been saying.... :rolleyes: :shrug: The *IF* is what some people don't get......when the hotshot is not needed and is still used?? I take offense to that.

If you were selling the heifer you should have said something about the way they were treating you heifer.

If the heifer belonged to someone else you had no say, and you don't have to buy it either.

I told why they use schockers in rings and
I don't really care if you don't like my answer,
and I have been in the rings, and bought and sold livestock,
and I know why they do what they do.

The ring men don't care what people think.
It's what the boss says that counts, and that is who they work for.

bumpus
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That is your judgement and your opinion and your decision.

bumpus
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Cattle are alot tuffer than people think. Just think in the past and in some places yet they catch the poor calvles and brand them, now that hurts. You can do whatever you want in reason with your cattle next time tell the vet not to use the shocker its that simple. If it takes to long for you to catch each animal they get very stressed and can fall dead it happens. Vets will leave if you cant work your animals safely. Like said it may be time to rethink your cattle handling facility.

YUP!! :)

Whatever...I already covered all that. I get the impression you don't really read posts...just skip through. Oh well. :shrug:

I just now read your post which I had over looked.

No wonder he shocked her, she has to move or no one will pay top dollar for cattle that just stand there.

The ring man did the good job he was hired to do, and the heifer probably get shocked even more before she made it to the slaughter house to be butchered for meat.

Cattle have to move quickly or zap.

bumpus
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And people wondered why I preferred to butcher Prissie at home instead of sending her to the sale barn after she wouldn't breed any longer..... :flame:
This is why. The heifer would have moved if he had slapped her rump. Instead he repeatedly shocked her. Yes, I will not be doing that again. Yes, his job is to move those cows through the salebarn as fast as possible....how he does it is up to him. I was disapointed. Using a hotshot when its needed is one thing...this is another. I think this conversation is getting repetitive...just remind me not to ask you to work my cattle and we'll have no bones between us. Use the hotshot or not on yours, nothing to do with me anyway. :)

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Cattle and other livestock get branded, dehorned, shots, wormed, ears cut, castrated, almost every day and it is done quick and time is money in the business.

They are not pets which are kept at home except on pet farms.

bumpus
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Bumpus, I have a herd of almost 200 goats, a small herd of Jerseys and many calves. I do all of the above except branding(I tattoo instead). I am familiar with the necessary pains of the farm life.....the uneccesary is what I was discussing and that is what I find unacceptable. I also butcher at home and do the killing myself. I'm not a pansy about inflicting neccessary pain. Pain is a fact of life and death......pain that is not needed but inflicted out of thoughtlessness or cruelty?? That has no place in responsable animal husbandry.

I had a vet out to semen test a few mature longhorn bulls a few years ago and he showed up late and wanted to rush things along. I mentioned to him that he would end up taking longer to rush the old boys than if he let them work their way up the alley for a few minutes. The green vet decided that he and his assistant were far more efficient that any girl and a couple kids could possibly be so I stood back and let them handle it. The assistant was running the headgate and the vet had his prod and I did mention that they were not to loose the red bull back into the other mature bulls through the headgate or they would have an ugly bullfight on their hands. Sure enough, buddy was a bit slow on the headgate or lost his nerve when he saw a rather cranky longhorn bull bearing down on him, they lost a very expensive bull I was boarding in with the rest of the mature bulls. By the time the dust settled, I had two bulls terribly torn up, a vet and his assistant sitting on the cab of their truck, the dog was bleeding and sulking in a corner and most of my corrals were torn down. The vet sewed up two bulls, one dog and mentioned the tear in his shirt as he started writing up his bill. I called the owner of the clinic the next day, he tore up the bill for sewing up two bulls and a heeler and sent them back out to help rebuild corrals on their next day off, which suddenly became the very next morning. Sometimes taking an extra minute or so saves time in the long run.

When we first got our cows, someone mentioned to me that we needed a hotshot.

I asked DH if he wanted me to pick one up, when we had a freezer steer keep getting out, and he always wanted to wrestle with you.

DH said NO he didn't want one of those things here, they were a waste of money, and they will make a good cow go bad.

Asked him if he thought we would need one later, if we had a bull around for breeding the heifers. Again he said no, said that if the bull wouldn't move with a smack on the backside, he didn't want him anyway, and if he did get out or go after someone, a hotshot, wasn't going to help you, that's what the gun is for.



There is only 1 auction barn that I know of around here that uses hotshots, And they will use it on anything that comes through the gate, but only to get them down to the holding pens. While in the ring, they use sticks or buggy whips and smack them a little with them to get them to move around.

Bumpus, remind me not to have you around working my stock :nono:

I don't own a prodder, never have, never will and don't see the need for them other than exceptional circumstances. The only time I've allowed one to be used on my stock was when we were moving and it was imperative that the truck got on the road. It wasn't used on the cattle, it was used on the pigs which would not go up the loading race and without the prodder we would still be there.

I've worked on stations with over 2,000 breeding cows. Weaning was mayhem but I never once saw a prodder. A smart thawk on the area just behind the hip bone is usually enough to make them move forward in the race. If they refuse, you work whats in the race, draft them off and let them out. Good stockmanship is about being quiet and patient and if you can't manage that, you shouldn't be working/owning stock. And that goes for the vet too. Most vets seem to have little grip on handling stock and on my farm they do it my way. I'm paying very good money to have them look at my animal and I don't care how much of a hurry they are in or how busy they are - when they're on my farm, I'm employing them.

As for comparing a prodder to an electric fence, I bet none of you hang on to one and I doubt that a prodder up your backside would be very welcome either.

Cheers
Ronnie

I keep one in hand when I am working on close quarters. So far, have yet to use it, but if I were to mess up and get trapped, or fall, or whatever, it is a tool to have in hand.

When I first got cows, working them was a nightmare with what I had set up. I asked the AI lady and the vet what changes could I do to improve movement. They offered their ideas based on what I had to work with and their experences. I made those changes, and things go much better.

My AI tech has a goal of 8 minutes per cow. We hit 9 mins per cow this year.

First you say you would never ever use a Hot Shot, and then you use one.

You sound like some others on this thread who said the same thing.
Your statements contradict each other.

They say never out of one side of there mouth, and then they say they would on certain problems.

You people need to make up your mind, you either use them, or you don't.

Then you want to disaprove at the way I do things, which is the same way you have handled the problems. Using the Hot Shot. :shrug:

I also did not say I would use them on every animal,
I would only use a Hot Shot on the ones that will not cooperate.

bumpus
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I can honestly say that I don't own one and never will. I found that if a person spends a bit of time with their livestock and pass them through your alley and chute slowly and calmly, when you aren't needing to actually work with them, they become quite comfortable with the whole thing and it makes your job far easier.

I haven't changed my story or contradicted myself. I stand behind all my posts equally.

No, but I have always wanted one. Every so often you get a down cow, from milk fever or calving problems, and you need to get them up ASAP, or you need them to try and get up so they will position themselves on their opposite side if they've been down for awhile. Well, the easiest way to get the cow on her feet and that's for both me and the cow, would be to use a shock prod. The vet uses one in that situation and it's warranted, IMO. You DON'T use them to move cows along in a farm situation. It's not something for casual use, but I think there's a place for it when it comes to down cows.

Jennifer

Is there a better way to move them through the alley into the chute without using a hot stick? :help:[/QUOTE]


We always find that a good tail twist will usually get them moving. We have dealt with lazy fair steers in the past that just don't even want to walk into the ring. Grab that tail and twist it over the back in a circle and that will usually put some fire in their step. Just watch out for the retaliation in the form of a well aimed kick. :rolleyes:

My grandpa taught me that and it does work very well.