dead calf, again! Any thoughts?
 

we just had our third calf in three years(three different cows) and it was born dead. My husband is going to stop and chat with the vet today and possibly see about an autopsy, but here's the story.

The cows are two highlanders and a white faced beef cow, the bull is a highlander. All three were first calf hefers. We didn't purchase the bull until last July, but the same bull. We have 5+ acres of pasture and woods and feed hay from the first of November through May.

Two summers ago, the first highlander, a 3 year old hefer had a bull calf, we weren't expecting it quite yet and when we saw she'd had the calf, we went looking for it and found it dead.

Last summer, the beef hefer had a bull calf which seemed kind of retarded and died at two weeks old. We consulted the vet, and you guys here at this website before he died and determined after the fact that the calf just wasn't right.

Now this morning, the second highlander delivered a dead bull calf. We had been keeping tabs on her and were expecting this baby.

When we bought the highlanders, there were four hefers, we took two and a friend took two. The friend is the one who owned the bull at the time. He had three lovely hefer calves out of those two highlanders and the same bull, so we really don't think it's the bull, and the highlander hefers came from the same place and we just randomly took a yellow and a red one and he did also. Could there be some genetic thing only occuring in bull calves maybe?

The white face is obviously expecting again, the other highlander not visibly so yet, but dh is of the opinion(and I hate to admit it but I agree) that if we loose these other calves we're done. Selling all four of them and going back to buying steers every year. This is getting too costly. If anyone has any thoughts on this at all, they would be appreciated. We're getting really frustrated.

Thanks!

Bulls are notoriously weaker at birth than heifer calves and more likely to just die. Nature doesn't need as many males as it does females.
First calf heifers are more likely to give birth to dead bull calves than most of the rest of the populations.
Sometimes they are just born dead. Part of nature.

We've had two Dead on Arrival bull calves this year out of our 7 bull calves. One out of a first calf heifer and the other a cow delivering her second calf. Dad was there with the cow and the delivery was perfect, it was simply dead. The heifer's delivery was quick, the calf was simply dead.
Last year, none were born dead.

Calves
 

We give selenium shots to our expecting goats and it has made a BIG difference with live births, birthing and retained afterbirth. We had 13 healthy kids this year (100% alive and strong), twins and one set of triplets. All NO problems and does NO problems. Just a suggestion...Joan

I too have found this to be true

our first calves out of heifers are almost always bulls,and if we do lose one on arrival it is the bull calves.

Sorry for your loss. I know that hurts. I have a couple of questions. Have you guys had live calves of either sex from this bunch? If not..I would be looking at cause and effect on your place.

I would check out the grain..if you are feeding any. And I would check on what kind of hay/forage they are eating. Since your friend has had viable calves from basically the same bunch..it would appear to be something on your place..or something they are ingesting. Some hays will cause this ..I believe.


Oh..what state are you in?

Best of luck.

Another thing to look at would be your trace minerals and if you're lacking any. You also don't mention if there were any calving problems or if you were present for calving. The first problem calf makes me wonder if your cows are too fat/overfed because in the last term, the calf grows and his behavior almost sounds like a difficult delivery. The most recent, would be hard to answer for sure because you don't offer a lot of detail. I really doubt if it's genetic at all.

Personally, I wouldn't be putting this down to coincidence. Of the 9 calves born on my farm this year, 6 of them were bulls and three of them were to first calvers. All were healthy and that's what I would expect. One death ok but three, no.

I would be contacting my vet and looking for a problem - and one that immediately comes to mind is Brucellosis which typically causes abortion in the last third of pregnancy. The others have brought up some good points too in so far as what condition are the cows in and what is their feed intake and mineral status.

I wish you luck, it's always disappointing to lose calves and worrying when there doesn't seem to be a cause.

Cheers,
Ronnie

Sher has the right idea. If your friend hasn't had much trouble, you should look closely at your feeding/nutrition program. I don't have much experience with the dairy breeds, but you are having too high a death loss. With beef breeds, you might expect a 5% loss and bull calves aren't any more than heiffers. Talk to a vet or extension agent.

I think it's just a coincidence as far as the numbers, but if you have fat cows that could be an added burden to the birth. All it takes is the delivery to be slow and you can lose a calf. The bull calf you lost two years ago could very well have had a piece of membrane draping its nose and suffocated, but you don't know because the cow cleaned it off afterwards. The "retarded" bull calf that lived two weeks probably had a developmental problem of some kind. Or, it could have been kicked, or stepped on.

Did you pull the calf this morning or was it another one found after the fact? Did you witnessed the labor from early on to finish, were there to pull when the calf might have been stuck, etc.

I very, very much doubt it's anything genetic.

Really, I think you've just had bad luck. I would not get out of cows because of it. Your next two calves will probably be fine. :)

Jennifer

Are they on hay or grass? If it is old or poor hay it could be a vit A deficiency.

Sorry, but I very much disagree with the bull calves being weaker theory. We calve out over 150 head every year and see no difference in death loss between bulls and heifers. This year our death loss (at birth) was 0%.

The first thing that comes to my mind is disease. What is your vaccination program? Do you have one where you vaccinate the cows before breeding? BVD, IBR, PI3 and numerous others can cause major problems. Some will cause stillborn calves or calves that are born very weak and then die.

Next is nutrition. Although I think they would have to be in awfully poor condition to cause this problem

Mineral is another very likely cause. Do these cows have access to free choice mineral? Selenium is a biggie.

Talk to your vet, definitely get an autopsy done. Make sure your cows have access to mineral, talk to your vet and find out if you are in a Selenium deficient area (most of us are) and if so MAKE SURE your mineral contains Selenium. If you are in a deficient area you may want to consider giving your other bred cow a shot of Selenium. If you are not already vaccinating, start a program up. It won't likely help this years calves, but it could very well help with next year.

One other thing, are you there when these cows give birth? It is possible that the cows are just having a hard time at calving and that is what has given you the problems. It can happen, and has happened to us, where we and a neighbour bought part of the same set of heifers. We had no major problems and he had 3 c-sections. This is a slim possibility, but could be your problem.

My cow's first bull, at 26 mos., was a backwards and upside-down presentation. She labored from sometime after 11:30 p.m. when I last saw her with no signs of it, till when I went to check her at 6:00 a.m. next morning, and it was just the wrong time of day for a calf to come...a Friday night, with no help available.

Such a disappointment, but this loss had its blessing in that I had full access to her for milking and she was easily trained to it, though she kept looking backwards for her calf for nearly three weeks after I milked. I'd turn her out of her stanchion headed for her paddock, and she'd want to wait for it. She bellowed for it for about that long, too. It was very sad for both of us.

My cow's first bull, at 26 mos., was a backwards and upside-down presentation. She labored from sometime after 11:30 p.m. when I last saw her with no signs of it, till when I went to check her at 6:00 a.m. next morning, and it was just the wrong time of day for a calf to come...a Friday night, with no help available.

Such a disappointment, but this loss had its blessing in that I had full access to her for milking and she was easily trained to it, though she kept looking backwards for her calf for nearly three weeks after I milked. I'd turn her out of her stanchion headed for her paddock, and she'd want to wait for it. She bellowed for it for about that long, too. It was very sad for both of us.

She's had three of four bull calf births be difficult and need vet's assistance. But for her milk...now, she's not cycling and has been nowhere near a capable bull.

thank you all so much!! Overweight is not a probability, however, the mineral deficiency is what we're leaning towards. Both my dad and father-in-law, who have vast experience in raising beef cattle, tho in Arkansas, not Wisconsin, feel this is not a coincidence due to first bull calves. These appear to all be full term calves.

DH stopped by the vets office last night, ends up he's out of town, but one of the gals in his office suggested the mineral deficiency AND, we did loose a nine month old heifer due to a selenium deficiency several years back. This was verified by the vet who did a blood draw, gave her a shot of it but it died anyway. We do keep mineral blocks containing selenium(I started looking specifically for that after the heifer thing) available at all times. Never had another issue with it but now I wonder. When Doc gets back from vacation, we'll discuss this with him. Are shots the only way to boost selenium? Is there a suplement better than the store bought mineral? They get no grain.

We did witness this birth, but don't know how long she labored, the feet and nose were aleady visible. As I mentioned, we were looking for this calf and when DH went checking on her first thing in the morning, she was pushing the feet and head out. She was not in labor the night before when we checked her. It was a perfect presentation. She seemed to have trouble birthing the head, she'd push out the feet and nose then stop. It took about an hour from the time we discovered her till she delivered the dead calf. DH did pull in the end, but she had delivered the head by that point.

It's hard to not consider getting rid of the cows at this point and going back to buying butcher steers, which are getting harder and more expensive to come by. At $1200/year for hay, this little herd of ours are becoming awful expensive 'pets'.

Wait until your vet gets back and have a good talk with him. He will hopefully suggest bloods which will show any major deficiency and then give you advice on how to correct it/them. If there is a major deficiency, mineral blocks are not going to fix the problem simply because the risk of poisoning non-deficient stock ensures that there isn't enough mineral in them to correct the deficiency in mineral deficient stock.

Our previous farm was cobalt and selenium deficient. It didn't affect all my cattle but showed up badly in weaned calves. I got around the problem by having cobalt and selenium added to the fertilizer. Our present farm is copper deficient and because I also run sheep, I have chosen to deal with the problem by injecting the cattle with copper twice yearly. On both these farms I was at my wits end with skinny cows and potty calves that didn't thrive and sheep that fell over dead (cobalt). It took very little to right the problem but I too was about to chuck the whole thing in. Stick with it, there will be a perfectly plausible reason for all of this and once you know what it is and deal with it, having a few cows will again be a pleasant experience.

Cheers,
Ronnie

Selenium
 

Farm Maid is correct. I have seen a great deal of improvement after giving a cow or mare a shot of Selenium. It is in most mineral blocks, but in too low of an amount to really bring it up to optimum levels. An injection a week or two befor calving or foaling has made a world of difference to me.
I'd suggest that you keep a mineral block with Selenium available, plus the injection. You can have Selenium added to your grain mix. Talk to your Feed Store guy about how much to add. Like nearly everything, too much of a good thing is toxic.

would it be beneficial to go to Farm and Fleet and pick up a bag of Agrimaster 2:1 Livestock Mineral? It states 'Feed 2:1 mineral as the sole source of selenium in the ration'. Would that be a safe way of dealing with this until next week when the vet returns. I'd like to give the next one the best possible go at it, but don't want to harm her and/or the calf either. Not sure of her due date, she's bagged up, but not like she did last year, so I don't think she's real close, but we're watching her.
We have had very dissapointing(and expensive) dealings with the vets in the next town over, so are really trying to wait to speak with our own vet.

Just out of curiosity. Is your beef herd crossbreed or purebred?
You will notice that the two of us who have seen this, have experienced it with the Jersey breed where the inbreeding is getting closer, unfortuantely...therefore making for weaker calves overall, when breeding is not handled properly.
AI has been used in the Jersey breed for quite a while and used extensively. Unfortuantely, the studs use the same bulls for the same breeding nad it has weakened the breed as whole, thus we are finding an overall weakness in the calves. Jersey calves on this farm used to be up and running when dad was young. Now, we are pleased to see a Jersey calf up and about by an hour after birth.
Why do you think we brought in some outside blood? We still have purebred Jerseys that trace their genetics back to the first registered Jerseys, but the NR definitely has helped some.
The reproductive health of our animals has been top notch according to our vets.
Even in the goats, the males are just generally weaker. They are bigger and slow to get moving. They tend to come later than females. If there is a birthing problem in either species is generally a male. That was I've been told by people in the business for over half a century and more and that is what I have seen as well.
Now Crucible's calf was a shock, since our older cows rarely have issues with calves arriving dead. First calf heifers delivering dead calves? Not unheard of. We aren't liking the numbers we've seen in recent years. We had a heifer calf born dead last March... One in the two years prior to that (but it was the middle of witner and she had run off and hid...he didn't look like he ever took a breath to me (tongue still hangning out when I located him).






OP, I hope you can figure it out. That is a higher rate than one would expect with such a small herd. A lot of feeds will not deliver enough selenium depending on where you are located. Selenium amounts are regulated according to the areas that needs the least amount. So areas, like ours, the minerals won't have enough. We have it added to the feed as well and even then, we give shots to the goats and calves.
It would benefit you to find a selenium map online (does anyone here have that link?). If they don't have here, someone on the goat board should have it. That would give you an idea if the minerals would be enough.

Selenium definitely helps presentation, delivery and clean up afterwards.
Were the animals getting enough exercise as their deliveries came closer? A healthy toned uterus makes for stronger contractions and a better delivery.
Calves tend to pause at the point you mentioned, but an hour is longer than it should take. That head takes the longest to deliver due to the stratching required.
I'm not the one to suggest helping to deliver calves though. Our Jerseys and Jersey crosses don't require help delivering as a general rule. I can't remember the last calf that actually had to be "pulled" but Jerseys are notorisouly easy calvers.

Roseanna, we run a crossbred herd. Certainly you will see more bull calves requireing assistance than heifer calves. They are as a rule somewhat larger than their heifer counterparts. But, that does not make the calves weaker, just more difficult to be born. If you provide timely assistance when necessary you should see no difference in the vigor of bulls vs heifers. The problem you are having is pretty much a general loss of vigour due to inbreeding, and this is a somewhat different case.

Since this has gotten me thinking, I went back and reread the first post, and this time I really paid close attention.

All of the dead calves were Bull calves, you say the friend had no problems and had all Heifer calves. Well, there is your problem, we have had the same problem with a bull once. Teeny tiny heifer calves, and humongous bull calves. While the problem could certainly be exacerbated by other issues, such as disease, mineral or feeding practices your biggest problem I think is that the calves were too big and took too long to be born. When we experienced the same thing all of the calves were out of cows, not first calf heifers. That makes a big difference.

What you need to do with your next cow is to keep a closer eye on her. You need to know when she started labour so you know if you need to assist and when. After the water bag breaks a heifer should have the calf, or at least be showing significant progress within an hour. A cow that has had at least 1 calf should take under 1/2 hour. Now, I wouldn't get excited if they take a bit longer (15 - 20 min longer) but much longer than that means they need assistance. I would also suggest finding a different bull... And, odds are, now that your cow has birthed a calf she will be able to have this calf with no trouble.

nitrates in water or feed can kill off the fetus, or cause the cow to abort, or a still birth,

and if your were not there when born all it take is a little after birth over the mouth or nose to kill it, the cow will lick the butt fist it seems like, and not the nose. the calf is dead then the cow licks the rest clean. result beautiful dead calf.

I've heard that lepto can cause weak calves or abortion. It's not really a common thing where I'm at so maybe somebody familiar can advise.

I have raised cross bred cattle for years without the problems you are having. I wonder about genetics as a cause like the bull gives a lethal birth defect. Some birth defects are chemical or blood so wont show on autopsy. If nothing else works , I would consider a new bull. Registered herds and breeds that have been endangered have more limited gene pools so more birth defects.
If it was one heifer or cow would just write it off as a bad mother and cull her. A calf too big for the mother from being bred too young or a bull throwing large calves can cause protracted labor, but that usually ends up with us pulling the calf or missing it and finding dead cow and calf.
One last thing. Its hard to make money in cattle and impossible with 1 bull and 3 cows. Consider AI, at least 15 cows with more acreage (or leave the fence down with the neighbors bull.)

We really aren't looking to make any money, just beef for the table!!

Success at last!!!
 

two weeks ago we had a LIVE, heifer calf!!!! It's still alive!!! She's cute, spunky and nursing, I think she's going to be just fine. This calf came from the whiteface beef that had the 'retarded' bull calf last year.

The only thing we did was start giving them a loose mineral supplement with a handful of grain for taste. The bag states to give as the only source of selenium. I find it hard to believe that this made the difference in the short time we've been giving it. I'm more inclined to think it has something to do with the bull calves.

Great! :dance: How long have you been giving the mineral?? It makes a HUGE difference for an animal to have proper minerals. Especially pregnant ones!

I agree with Emily. It's a huge deal for cattle to have free choice mineral. My three beef cows go through quite a bit of it.
Congrats on the new calf!!!

Were these females vaccinated? It sounds like they weren't, or you (as mentioned before) have a mineral deficency problem.

Mineral blocks are ok for horses, but don't provide enough mineral for cattle. Cattle NEED loose mineral in mineral feeders to stay healthy and reproduce consistently. Look for 'licks' in your pasture where the cattle have been licking dirt trying to get minerals....

I like the Brower mineral feeders, all poly and heavy duty rubber, nothing to rust or break.

http://www.browerequip.com/products/...l/mineral.html

Lepto, brucellosis, a variety of other diseased can cause abortion in late term cattle pregnancies or result in still borns. If you haven't had these cattle vaccinated, check with who you bought them from and ask if they ever had them given blackleg and lepto shots (each shot covers several different diseases, both need to be given twice about 6 weeks apart from what I recall).

If the cattle haven't ever been vaccinated, talk to your vet and see if he thinks it would be beneficial to vaccinate them now, or is it to late.

In my experience, bull calves are just as healthy as heifers....no difference in loss rates.

Yea!! Congratulations! That is great news! It's always fun to get a new healthy calf, especially after so many stillbirths. I hope all continues well for you and all your future calves!

CK

Tripletmom, I request the vitamin pak and selenium to be added with our grain mix at the mill.

You might want to change your bull. He could carry a genetic flaw that is the problem. Most breeds have such a flaw within them. I'd blame the bull instead of the cows, because the problem was with three different cows, same bull.

I've heard that Highland beef is very tasty.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

Tripletmom,
Did you by any chance give your cows a "vira-sheild 6" vaccine during pregnancy? It contains a lepto vaccine that I understand to sometimes cause still births and abortions.

no vaccines at all. Chatting with my girlfriend who used to own the bull and had the other two heifers of the four highlanders in the first place, we almost have to wonder if it is a genetic thing like you suggested that is possibly sex-linked to bull calves. If you recall earlier in this string, she got three perfectly healthy heifer calves from the same bull. They lived about 50 miles north of us at the time and pretty well used the same management techniques, ie. grazing in summer, hay in winter, no vaccines, mineral block for that, etc. Our little girl calf is still doing great!

highlands
 

We raise highlands and a few others as well.
Highland beef is very good and lean. You will have to adjust your cooking!

#1 Don't just give up, sounds like your hope is back with the new calf.

#2 See if you can breed the cows to someone elses highland bull - you test different genetics that way. If they are good, you found the problem.
Our herd after doing some tracking had alot of line breeding in it, almost to the point of tree trunk, changed the bull and babies all over the place now!

#3 Minerals - VERY IMPORTANT, take care of the girls, minerals and feed both, there are times you can cut back but during breeding and just before calving are very important.

Good luck and the vet should be able to help if it is a mineral problem right away.