LOL, I was wondering that too........I think he was just using that as an expression. A farmer near here was killed recently by what the media called a bull. Not sure what it was that killed him because the media generally couldn't tell a bull from a billy goat. About 20 years back a neighbor was killed by a red angus steer, and a few years before that another neighbor was killed by a dairy cow. With beef cattle I've noticed that English breeds are usually more docile than continental breeds. I've also noticed that horned animals are more aggresive, especially when they are kept with polled animals, as they tend to become the herd alphas.

I've never felt fear from a playfull bovine. All my "ex lax" moments have came about from critters with evil intent.

The sentence: "A long tall Shaggy Angus with a neck like an Oak Tree and a Big Curly Herford with Horns locked together ..." implies that only the Hereford had horns. The Angus had "a neck like an oak tree." But back in the day when UpNorth was a "lad," heck an Angus might have had three horns back then.... :baby04:

A ex lax moment may come from evil intents but I can assure you there has been many a farmer hurt from playful pushes.

The point is any bovine can hurt you even tame ones.

I would much rather turn my back on a heifer or cow than a bull any day because a bull can become aggressive on the drop of a dime and hand feed ones are worse.
But on the other hand I would much rather turn my back on a hen than a rooster. Ask my son why I say this. He had a pierced ear before pierced ears were cool from a roster spur when he was a young boy.

Oh I understand this.........lol

Actually having worked extensivly with both I'd say horses are more dangerous than cows any day.

First time I ever had a pet steer was a few years ago. Never had one like him before (and hope to never end up with one like him again, lol). He was cute at first, easy to handle, but when he got bigger....uh boy. I made a few MAJOR mistakes when being around him:
1. I LET him push me with his head a number of times
2. Tried to fend him off when he was in his playful moods, but made the mistake of BACKING OFF when I should've stood my ground after I gave him a clout on the snout...
3. I didn't know it at the time, but I should've established myself as higher in the pecking order than him when he was younger...and established agmantoo's arm-length rule.

See, there's the problem right there...inexperience. I didn't know how to act around this friendly steer, and didn't know about the way to treat him when I was in the same pen with him. Neither did my mom and dad. So, now that I read this on here, and after I read a few others like this on another cattle forum, I have a much better understanding of what to do when I get an over-friendly bottle-fed steer (I assume that he WAS bottlefed) is to carry a stick around...and give a good HARD whap on the nose, not the muzzle, the nose (where it hurts the most), and he'll respect you.

Btw, my great grandpa was killed my a red angus bull...not clear on the story of what caused the bull to react, but I have my theories...

AND I was charged AT by a Charolais bull when I was a little girl (only about 2 at the time)...still remember that, me screaming bloody murder on my high-tailed flight to the house, and the bull in more shock than me because all he wanted was out...AND I was ALSO charged by a black mottled-face steer when my parents were out fixin fence a year or so later...scared the $!%# out of me, lol!!....................and I STILL love my cattle, LOVE being out among them 1000#+ steers!!!

Oh yeah (lol) I got three bulls I have to watch out for now in the corral, right now they're the type that'll have nothing to do with me and take great lengths (and care) to stay the heck out of my way when I'm or anybody else is around. They'll get braver when the snow's gone and the mud's dried up, no doubt, but I'll be ready for them all right, I'll be ready...

Yeah, what she said.
Dip me in Vulture puke and hang me out for the 'yotes cuz I ain't no English Major, LOL.

I've a few steer calves right now, the oldest is a 9 month old Jersey. None of them show anything in the way of playfulness toward me. They don't fear me and, in my inexperience perhaps, I find that preferable. It is still relatively easy to corner and give them a shot or drench if they need it. They've been bottle fed (except two on nurse Jerseys) but I've encouraged them to be with the herd during the day. They play among themselves, not with me. The only one I will be keeping for longer is the Jersey who will be 18 months before leaving. Neighbor brought over a bale of hay to put in Kash's (2 yr Angus)corral and Kash, for the first time played with the roll while it was on the tractor. I had to get his attention so he would let the man put the hay in the ring. When the hay was down, Kash went to butt heads with it, trying to push it. The neighbor said "he's starting." He said that the playing was a sign of him becoming "mean." That's the word his wife used. I doubt it is an accurate word but it seems to fit in with this discussion. So when does a bull become a "bull?" 2, 3, 4 years?

A bull becomes a bull when he hits maturity. That is usually less than a year old. Him playing with the bale doesn't mean that he is becoming mean. Heck, our cows will do that. They just see it as something to toss around. Personally, I don't believe that there are very many truly MEAN animals out there. I know there are some as I have had some, but generally cattle are not out to get you. They will do what they can get away with. Cattle are not pets, and treating them as such is what causes many incidents. YOU need to have boundaries, and enforce them. A cow can kill you as easily as a bull, or a steer. Bulls deserve RESPECT, but they also MUST respect YOU. Bulls are also not for the inexperienced. They must KNOW you are top in the pecking order as well. As long as they will move away from you when you ask them to, then you are probably safe enough, but you still must be aware of what is going on. Treat a bull like you would treat a cow with a new calf. You should be able to safely work with him, but you need to be aware of what he is doing at all times!

we keep a jersey bull, because we have 10 cows. they can breed at about 7 months and up(experience tells me this). our first one had been played with as a baby( not by us) and it showed. he would attack phone polls knock over 100 gallon water tanks ect. our new one has not been agressive yet, but he is showing signs, but there are cows going into heat that he cant get too. and then again i am miling his current girl friend and he doesnt like it. I keep the pitchfork pointed at him at all times...

that being said, I have been injured by the cows more times. And that is because i keep watch over the bull, and relax a bit arround the cows.

i think the dairy bull thing is like the banty chicken thing...sms...(short man syndrome-they all think they are napolean bonnepart)btw i am short so nobody take offense please :p

Hey Marcia! So glad to see you back!
DH grew up with Jerseys so I asked him if he had any real-life stories about Jersey bulls. He sorta smirked and said "Yeah."
Said his dad was attacked out of the blue by a Jersey bull. First ever sign of aggression out of the bull. He knocked him to the ground and was trying to gore him. He grabbed the horns and made sure he was between them when they hit the ground. Bull kept trying and was wallowing him towards a tree to get a better grip on him. DH's grandfather had to jab a few holes in the bull with a pitchfork before he let loose and ran off. Bull was immediately sold.
DH said he spent quite a few hours in old persimmon trees when he was a teenager because of different Jersey bulls. The bull ran with the cows, and one of the boys would have to go out and bring the cows in for milking. He said the bulls were totally unpredictable - most times they would ignore him, but sometimes they'd get a wild hair and decide they wanted to kill him. He'd get to a tree and get up it and sit and wait while the bull pawed, snorted and slobbered below. He said it'd usually take about an hour for them to lose interest and wander off.
He's been around beef and dairy bulls since, and said the most trustworthy he's seen is the Dexter. Even with the Dexter bulls though, he always knows where the bull is and what he's doing.

Guys,
My advise is to never trust a bull, no matter what the breed or how gentle he seems. That doesn't mean we don't use bulls, we do. I try never to be where I can't make a fast get-a-way when I feed them etc.

Thanks everyone for the great advice and relating your stories. I hope this thread has helped others as much as it has helped me. I do plan on getting a Jersey bull; it is a matter of when not if. The bull calf I was getting will not work out but I will keep looking. I don't believe in not getting an animal merely because of the dangers it will pose. I've kept wild boars, reticulated pythons, Burmese pythons, and anacondas, so a bull is just another potentially lethal animal. I honestly believe that there are ways to listen to animals and communicate. Not that I think I'm some kind of special keeper; anyone can listen. Many people merely find it more convenient to ignore animals thereby excusing a lot of selfish behaviors on our part and a lot of horrific treatment. When AI comes to my area I will be first in line for Jersey and Guernsey semen, but until then, I will keep a bull for my small herd. Thanks again.

Marcia, I think your best bet is to keep a yearling around. Let him get the job done, whack off his little knackers to get his mind off of *** and on to grass, and chose a calf for next years bull.

That is true, I know when a cow is going to protect a calf or herself. My uncle would sens me down in the pasture to check the sex of the calf after lunch. I was always told to bring a stick or some-thing (4-wheels don't do good if you can get it started!) So even around cows im not gonna let me gurad down. People just think, it's a cow and shes so claim. So they leave their kids in a pen with her and find the kid dead. Of corse the bull got the blame, but thats why more and more people die from cows. they think only bulls will hurt you. I have seen alot of mean cows. I will never forget number 47 a all black hostien. She was from #5 the only fully black cow. (I can tell you who her mother was! oh yea #19!!) but any ways # 5 was a very nice easy going cow. They let me milk her at 8 (well put the milker on, only old cows were to be milked by us. Even when I was 13 they woulded take their eyes off me.) # 47 was the wildest thing ever. she woulded be milked and the rare time you had to watch out for a foot! And they got fed up with her! And sold her. They guy that came had to put a tag in her ear so people knew where she came from. And it took him over 10 mins just to get it in!

No matter what animal you have to be careful. The qoute i used was I know my goats! I know there favorite foods and what they are like. I know when a doe will attack another and when some one is gonna get hurt!

I got my first goats a few years ago and this fall I had a few nubians to be bred. Now we took her for a 45min drive. and she was in a false heat, so i went in the pen with him (a 200 + pound buck) Not knowing what he would do I sat down and let my gurad down! I diddn't get hurt, He just went in and started eatting hay. So I could have been hurt. But I wasn't and now I know not to do that again! :nono:

I just sold "Tiny" today. A Holstein bull that was going towards three years old. He'd never been a problem but was getting too big for the new heifers I have coming in. One heifer has a capped hip already and while it may not have been him it probably was. He is the oldest bull I've ever had on the place because mostly I raise them up, let them do some breeding and send them down the road at 14 months or so. I've never seen any aggressiveness with these young bulls, but then I've always known where they were in the barn when I was out there, too.

Jennifer

That's about what I was thinking too, minus the castration. Unless it is feasible with a vet. Bulls bring in just under the same $/ lb as steer calves at the sale. While short, he'd have had a decent life for a dairy bull and that is all I can offer.

I think folks who talked about bottle-feeding and lack of fear hit the nail right on the head. I’m not sure that a dairy bull is necessarily less dangerous than a beef bull, but on dairy farms the farmer is in much closer contact with his animals than a beef farmer. If the bull is running with the herd, the farmer is in the pen with him more often. The bull loses his wariness from seeing the farmer daily and has many more opportunities to charge.

I would think (and what do I know?) that aggressive bulls out in the pasture are a good thing. Testosterone brings aggressiveness, but it also brings a will to breed. For non-intensive graziers that are only in the field with their animals a few times a month, that aggressive lad will get the girls bred. Production traits – whether beef or dairy would be much more important than temperment even if you did want to breed for temperment.

That said, I suspect that dairy bulls ought to have less aggression in general than the beef breeds – all other things like exposure, early feeding, and whatnot being equal.

The first reason is the widespread use of AI in the dairy industry. In beef animals, the more aggressive animal will breed more cows than a less aggressive animal regardless of production traits – and my impression is that beef folks (in general) are less obsessed with production traits than dairymen who see the results on a daily rather then semi-annual basis. Heck, I know several of my neighbors have their beef hers bred by bull calves they just “missed” castrating.

In dairy, where AI is much more prevalent, the focus on production shifts things away from aggression. If a bull that is less aggressive has good production traits, he will still have many, many offspring because his semen is delivered by a technician.

Secondly, although bull proofs do not include temperment data (except for New Zealand bulls which have a “shed temperment” calculation), there is heavy selection for temperment on the cow side of the equation. Feisty cows don’t stick around for long unless they have unusually high production. I may be willing to put up with a kicker if she is twenty pounds above the herd average, but if she is average or even slightly higher than average, the daily extra hassle will be enough to put her near the front of the cull line. I’ve also heard dairymen say that they don’t like to use particular AI bulls because their calves were unruly. So the more even temperment ought to bleed over from the mother’s side.

Setting aside all this theory, I can relate some practical experience. A couple years ago I ended up buying some angus-cross steers from a dairyman who used an Angus on his heifers. I raised them with some straight Holstein steers with exactly the same care. Bottle-fed, handled daily, moved on a daily basis to a new paddock. The Holsteins got so that they would come up for a scratch or just stand close to me. The Angus x Holsteins didn’t want to be touched. They would put up with a hand on their flank, but not more. The only difference was breed. And there wasn’t much variation. The most skittish Holstein was still calmer than the tamest cross.

Now, it could be that the heifer-breeding Angus bull was just a mean cuss and passed his cussedness down to his progeny. I only had the sample get of one bull. But that practical experience was totally congruent with the theoretical impact of shed temperment considerations. I really do think that the difference is early handling AND frequent human interaction AND more frequent opportunity to do harm.

What would help your theory is if we knew, or could find data to support, the opportunity to do harm equation. In the days before AI, did dairy farmers and beef farmers both allow their bulls to run with the herd? Very different dynamics between a beef herd and a dairy herd, as you and others hae pointed out. For a beef rancher it would be a question of why not let the bull run with the herd. But for a dairy farmer it would be a hassle twice a day, every day, 365 days a year. With their record-keeping, they would know when their girls were due to be dried up, they would know when they needed to be bred, etc. Why allow the dairy bull to run with the herd? Does anyone know the practice on dairy famrs back when bulls were a necessity?

Tango,

Prior to the GI bill sending farmboy veterans to Ag short courses where they learned about AI, AI was very rare. The AI explosion happens in the late forties. Prior to that, every dairy farm had a bull. The folks I know who use bulls in the valley today (usually graziers who are looking to tighten up calving windows) just have the bulls run with the herd. I'm not sure what the common practice was back in the 20s and 30s, but my grandfather let his bull run with the herd (and almost paid with his life). I'm assuming he was not unusual since back in the day farmers did not want seasonal calving because milk prices varied tremendously.

Even if the dairy bulls were only running with the herd for a short period, it would still be a dangerous period. Compare that to old-style beef cattle management when you let the animals free-range and wouldn't do anything with them except once a year (branding and banding) until it was time to drive them to a railhead. You'd have four year old steers going to market. Talk about wild animals. You wouldn't see grain fattening of cattle on a large-scale basis until after WW II (increasing after Butz was Ag Sec).

So I definitely think (note: think, not know) that the emphasis on being careful with bulls on dairies was a function of handling + interaction + opportunity.

Mark, to make sure I understand, your opinion is that even if it was a short period of exposure to a dairy bull, it was a dangerous period? But no more dangerous than the beef bulls of old when they had to be handled?

By listening and observing animals people can communicate with animals. Most people do not do enough observing. Many animals can be lethal. Farmers have lived for generations by observing their animals and doing what must be done to remain safe before the problem occurs. Those who say animals will attack without warning are those who do not pay enough attention or know the species of animal they own. There are always warnings people just tend to ignore them.

oh the irony, the last couple of days is when our boy has hit his stride. apx 18 months old, and not fit to be arround anymore, so far I have him bluffed, but its time to pen him or ship him, cant eat him cause we have 2 at the processers already...hopefully we can keep him up and confined until we are ready to breed again...

he was such a mellow fellow, but he sees me as threat because I milk his girlfriends and handle them and such...

Yes, animals will "warn" you, before attacking, but in the case of a bull that warning may be 3 seconds before the charge. Farmers have kept bulls for years, and farmers have been injured/killed by bulls for years. A good cow dog at your side is a big help when working around a bull. The dog will watch the bull when you can't, and can give you a chance to escape by grabbing a nose or ear when the attack comes.

Pancho, I strongly disagree with your statement.

"Those who say animals will attack without warning are those who do not pay enough attention or know the species of animal they own. There are always warnings people just tend to ignore them."

From a seasoned farmer that is with his animals daily, there is not always a warning. Not even a subtle warning in some instances. Thinking as you stated will get someone killed.

Maybe you've not tried it?? :shrug: Dairy beef can indeed be excellent. It is what my family prefers.

Tango, since I was 7 years old and we got our first Jersey cow, we have bottle-raised a quality Jersey bull calf every year or two. We do as you describe, use him on the cows then after they calve, use him to resettle them about two months later, then fatten him a bit and put him in the freezer around or before he turns two. This way, we have never had a problem. I don't like AI and want to raise my own bulls. The only Jersey bull we ever had serious trouble with was a 1-1/2 year old bull that we bought from a friend. He tested us at every turn. He went into the freezer as soon as our cows were settled.
This works for us. Thats NOT saying you don't have to watch very carefully a bull at *any* age. They can get pretty pushy before they turn 2. Bulls are *never* to be trusted, no matter their age or disposition. Same with any male animal.

Yeah, they warn you, but a bulls warning may be 5 seconds before he hits you and you hit the ground. For all intents and purposes, thats without warning.
I listen very closely to my animals and have for 18 years, I do know about body language and such. I keep breeding bulls and breeding bucks. I love them, but I never trust them.

Very interesting about the opinions between there is a warning and there is no warning. Jerzeygurl just posted about the change in her bull. A slight change, not one that cost her life or limb. I've noticed a slight change in my Angus bull this week also. He's two. For the first time I've seen him change toward me, especially when I am messing with his girls. He's gone from being more interested in feed to being more interested in me, when I am handling the Jerseys. As an interesting aside, the same lack of warning is used by people against the keeping of giant snakes. In my personal experience they give plenty of warning. Giant snakes are extremely tolerant, until they snap. But they warn, sometimes for months.... At any rate, the combination of bottle feeding/ close human contact as calves and being in a herd that is twice daily taken away from them seems to be a major factor in the dangers of dairy bulls. Those two factors are not present in the average beef herd.

It's all I grow, the caves are cheaper and I know holsteins beter than other breeds. I wouldn't term it as excellent. Although last year I used TendRLean for the first time last year and it was better than normal, pretty close to excellent.

I grew up eating whoever was culled from the milking herd....lots of hamburger and roasts.

Good point. We raised angus cattle for years but the best beef I've ever had came from a 3 yo gurnsey steer that (as dad described) "looked like a racehorse".

We ate it ourselves because dad couldn't stand the thought of selling someone "bad beef".

Not everyone is able to see the warnings. Many people do not bother to notice how an animal can change from day to day. It is the same animal and you have to pay attention to see the difference. Those who do not bother to notice, do not have the experience, or choose to ignore the difference will always be surprised when their animal suddenly changes.
Thinking as I stated will save a life. Paying attention to your animals will never get someone killed. An experienced person will continually be on the lookout for any change in their animals. An experienced person will notice the slight changes in an animal. Those who do not notice the changes have a greater chance of getting hurt.
Notice I didn't say everyone can do this. Many are continually surprised when their animals become sick even though there were symptoms for several days. Some people do not know enough about the animal they raise to know the warnings.
Much like anything else, some are better at it that others. Those who cannot do something cannot understand when someone else can do what they cannot.

we prefer a jersey for beef, the vet even recomended it, its just that the fat is yellow so its not sold comercially,

generally we use one to breed then eat him, but we are postponing breeding most of the mammas so we arent calving all of them in winter, dont have enough pens to keep him off of everyone unfortunately, the bull pen is the next on the list.


The bull no longer sees me as a human, but as a rival..even tho i am female...
we have several ladies coming in that he cant get to, which doesnt help the situation.

we had a stand off yesterday, he didnt quite cave he just turned his head away and starting eating, if I had turned my back he would have come after me(no honor with bulls)

Here is something else to keep in mind about bulls. They will and do act differently towards women and men. I have had bulls that I couldn't do anything with, and yet my husband could safely work with. That bull didn't last long around here....

that is true, but i have days that the cows do that too :rolleyes:

With me it was the opposite. The one Jersey bull we kept for 4 years(never did get mean and we sold him to a dairy for breeding heifers), was just a big baby with all us girls. But the minute he saw Dad.....he would beller. Never did anything more than that but it was a male to male challenge for sure.

This is what happens when you mess with a bull.


http://www.rieckesbaysidegallery.com...alers/Bull.jpg


http://www.rieckesbaysidegallery.com...alers/Bull.jpg

Yup. Jerseys are the worst. I wouldnt keep a Jersey bull if someone paid me a million bucks. I'm not going to put up with a testosterone run knotthead. Holsteins are very docile so I've seen.

Hmmm, that depends. We have had docile Jerseys and I've worked around a couple of killer holstiens.

actually if there hadnt been a 2x4 there i might be a grease spot, I was out there to catch a houdini calf before the murderous horses got it.

one day he was intimidated by me the next day he wasnt, thats how it goes, and if your out in the middle of the field with no escape route...running is a bad idea, turning your back is too...