How is raw milk better than pasteurized?
 

Please, let's not start a war over it, though! I don't mean about which you personally think is healthier; everyone has their own opinion of that. I mean in terms of if there is a noticeable physical difference between the two?

I was just curious that if one were to pasteurize milk by boiling, does this affect the milk's texture, taste, or consistency? Does it affect the cream? Or is it merely a matter of personal preference? I just wanted to know if pasteurizing affects how you can "work" with your milk in terms of making butter, cheese, etc.

DD

Pasteurizing is not boiling. In order to pasteurize, the milk is heated to 165F. We notice a 'cooked' flavor to ours even when we cool it at fast as possible in ice water, so we prefer to drink it raw.

When we make cheese, I use raw milk to start with and the cheesemaking process heats the milk to the pasteuizing temp, so I really didn't see a need to heat it twice.

www.realmilk.com Here's some raw milk info for you and you can make your own informed decisions.

I have noticed that the cream does not rise as quickly on our pasteurized milk. I pasteurized our milk because we give some of it away and I don't want to take a chance of anyone saying they got sick drinking our raw milk. The real milk website lists the reasons why raw milk is better for you than pasteurized milk. I'm with you though, it is just a personal choice.
Charleen is right. You do have to boil milk to pasteurize it. Used pasteurizers are for sale all the time on Ebay. I use a Safeguard pasteurizer. It is easy to use and you pasteurize and cool your milk in the same bucket. The lid of the bucket has a seal and the heat creates a vacuum so that you don't have to heat the milk as high or for as long.

i skim before i pasturize be cause the heating and stirring is part of what they do to homoginize...

if i didn't hand milk i would be more likely to drink it raw...i don't pasturize for cheese that will be aged ( aging over 60 days kills all unwanted bacteria), i do have 3 kids one being 3 years old and the risk for illness isnt worth it for me, and i dont notice a change in taste.


now pasturizing for cheese will make a more uniform predictable product but they recomend you then use calcium chloride to aid in the curd setting process, but i never do and have had no problem.

I can tell the difference in taste between pasturized and non. I do not like it pasturized. I've never tried pasturized for butter or cheese so have no idea if it makes a difference. We always use it raw.

Raw milk makes my coffee taste much more expensive:)

Those lactose intollerant can drink draw milk. Because when they pastuerize, they kill the lactobasilis (SP). Years ago raw milk was dangerous, because the handling of the milk was different. Now adays with stainless steel on stainless steel, strong sanatizers, etc etc. Bacteria doesn't have it as easy as it used to. Dont get me wrong, you can still get bacteria, but it isn't as big of an issue as it once was. A lot of the anti-raw milk has been run by the government, and do we all think the government is right?


Jeff

Raw milk isn't "better" for humans because cow's milk is formulated for baby cows. Raw milk from healthy cows can contain bacteria that will make humans sick. From small farms or big dairies - look what happened in Washington State last year. I don't work for the government, and I don't think raw milk is "good" for anyone. The "government" has the responsibility to make recommendations on health, and scientific research isn't in favor of mass production of raw milk. The cow or goat in your backyard? Probably fine to drink raw. Raw milk from a grocery, no way. I pasteurize my own milk. Those raw milk websites? Speaking of non scientific rhetoric... lol.

http://intothesunrise.blogspot.com/2...grass-fed.html

How did people ever live drinking raw milk before we invented the past. process?

I would think that if the amount of people getting sick on raw milk would have been alarming people would have not done it.

I drank raw milk most of the way through childhood and don't recall getting sick from it.

the amount of people getting sick on raw milk WAS alarming- thats why the regulations and laws about it were created. Its just that its so many decades ago, we arent aware of the risks- we havent faced them.

among the common problems-raw milk used to transmit tuberculosis - a very big reason why TB in cows was targeted and is nowhere near the issue it used to be. Johnes disease- theres some possiblity that it may be implicated as the causative agent for human Chrones disease- and thats one nasty illness.

Children, the ill, elderly and immune compromised will be far more susceptable to food borne illness, and be made ill by bacteria or viral counts that healthy adults with intact immune systems can tolerate.

I think its a personal decision- my own take on it is that if you know your animals health status, have tests for TB Johnes and other potential zoonoses done annually- then you have less risk drinking fresh, properly handled milk within the first 24 hrs after milking.

But there is a risk. Just because youve been lucky so far doesnt mean you'll stay that way! (but I hope you do, because the results coud be devastating and life threatening!) Its one I hope each person gets educated to before they decide to take that risk for themselves or loved ones. Then its up to you to decide if its worth it.

edited to reply to the origional question, (Advanced CRS< LOL!) I have drunk Nubian milk both pasteurized and unpasteurized-once from a CAE + doe on purpose for a few months because of getting stuck by an HIV positve needle at work (I'm an ER nurse) and I never noticed any differnece in taste. However I was using a pasteurizer, and it doesnt boil the milk. IMHO boiled milk does taste different.

Now that we're going to be back into milking, I'm planning to ask DH for a Weck Canner for my birthday in the end of March. Not only will it pasteurize, it also is good for many other tasks around the kitchen-including cheese making, juice making and even water bath canning as the name implies!

Whoops! Looks like we've strayed a bit from the original question.

I drink goat milk raw. I've tried pasteurizing, just to see what it's like, and it tastes cooked. I haven't done it enough to comment on differences in cream and butter. You can get more consistent results with mesophilic cheeses if you pasteurize first because you'll kill competing bacteria.

<biting my tongue and holding my hands behind my back> It was *NOT* supposed to be a raw milk benefits vs pasturized milk benefits thread.............I drink raw milk, won't drink it any other way and never will. I'll leave it at that. :)

The studies can come to one conclusion, who was behind the study, who funded the study? There have been studies after studies for different things. One year they say to drink wine, then the next they say its bad for you, then they say its good for you. They used to say take aspirin, but they also say its bad for you as well if abused. Here is the kicker, how many people that say "dont drink raw milk", and are anti, also buy medicine made by pharmeceutical companies, and overuse them. Not only that, many doctors out there wont take most of the medicines available, because they know how dangerous they are. The funny part about it, many medicines advertised on tv have warnings that aren't exactly settling. Most seem to cause vomiting, or some sort of dizzyness. Heck some heart medicines are harsh enough, if you stop taking them, it will kill you, yet they are being allowed to be sold.


There are some 200,000+ people who die each year from malpractice, mostly by physician associates. My point with those deaths, and many other things, is the fact very very few have died from raw milk. How many die each year? I dont hear of any, most people die from other things. The E-coli outbreak with the lettuce was finally blamed on a farm, yet I think it was the mexicans taking a dump in the fields. At the local fair, one kid died from an e-coli outbreak. They blamed it on the cows, yet when they tested the cows manure, not one had the strain of bacteria that was found in the well. What caused the outbreak? It was from human feces. There was a new building built, with new bathrooms. The septic system backed up, leaching on to the surface. This ran off into the well. This is why I find it hard to beleive the contaminated lettuce was because of run off from a farm, seems awfully strange to me, sounds like a coverup to me, to avoid a lawsuit.

So doctors can put down raw milk all they want, yet the same doctors will prescribe medicines that can kill you, or do other harmfull things. Has anyone noticed when something like raw milk crops up, and its a small scale deal, a few get sick, its the end of the world? Yet as I said, thousands are killed by neglegance on doctors part each year, and that isn't? Makes you wonder.

A last little bit, here in NY there was an inncident with raw milk. Someone got sick, and the farm had to clean up their act. Once they did, you might think, sales went bye bye? Actually, because of the publicity, their sales boomed, people went to the farm in droves to buy the milk. Seems as if people are super concerned eh? Also, Johnes is a big issue due to large confinement herds, small free ranging dairies wont have the issue with johnes as much, because they aren't confined.


Jeff

Why, they just died off left and right, you know, like the calves do? Poor things, forced to drink uncooked milk, and they're babies no less!

Why dont' they pastuerize spinach?

Wait, s'pose that will be next.

What is formulated for humans other than human milk? What about honey, do you say it's not good for humans either? Eggs? Meat? Grains?

If only they were "recommendations", and not forced on those that don't agree. :(

I think what DocM is saying is that milk, from any species, is formulated for babies and is not necessary for the adults of any species. I say this who live on a dairy, so don't get me wrong, by all means, drink milk, eat dairy. It just isn't necessary, kind of like chocolate, without which I would be very, very sad. :) But, if you think you HAVE to drink milk to get calcium ponder this; (as I have) where does the cow get the calcium she needs for herself and for her milk?

CK

"But, if you think you HAVE to drink milk to get calcium ponder this; (as I have) where does the cow get the calcium she needs for herself and for her milk?"

Largely from the forages they consume if pastured. Feedmill feed may contain calcium as one of the minerals in it.

Adults can take calcium supplements. I take one a day as a precaution since I eat or drink very little dairy products. Calcium is not only utilized by bones, but also helps in the transfer of nutrients through cell walls.

Uggg, so much for not avoiding the "which is theoretically healthier" debate! ;) :D

If one were to pasteurize raw milk, what do you all mean by a "cooked" taste? Do you mean burnt-tasting? I guess if one is used to drinking store-bought pasteurized milk, though, it would make that much of a noticeable difference to start drinking pasteurized "homegrown" milk?

And so pasteurized milk is not actually boiled, so would it just be close, as in being brought to the scalding point? How much would a small pasteurizer cost to do this just for one cow, or is it easier just to do it on the stovetop?

DD

I paid 30 or 40 IIRC for an old pasteurizer on Ebay. May take awhile to find one.

Ive never noticed a difference in the taste pre or post pasteurization, since Ive drunk it both ways. The lower temp the pasteurizer uses may be the difference.

You can pasteurize on the stove. Ive done it. But it takes time and attention, and the least distraction is just the moment when the temp is rising causes an oops!- Ive ruined a few gallons this way :)

Everyone who has tasted our pasteurized milk says it is delicious; and that includes people who were raised on raw milk. As I said in an earlier post, I use a pasteurizer and I think the lower temp. it uses makes a big difference in the taste. As I said earlier, pateurization is a personal choice for me. It is up to each consumer whether they choose to pasteurize or not.

Isn't one advantage of pasteurization increased shelf life? My understanding shelf life would be a huge problem in the retail marketing of whole milk.

As an aside on shelf life when I put cottage cheese in the frig. I turn it upside down. One tub got in a shelf corner and went unnoticed for a long time. After a while I decided to see just how long it would stay. Best if used by date is 7/05 so at least 18 months now. No idea what contents are like, but container itself still looks like new with no bulging.

Shelf life can be as great with pasteurized as raw if your milk is of good quality. Why do the milk companies get concerned with Somatic Cell levels? Why do they give you more per cwt (very little) for higher quality milk (low scc). Well its because a low Somatic Cell Count, aka white blood cell count, generally translates to longer lasting milk on the shelf. A few people who buy from us, had milk for a couple weeks, it never went bad. I have had milk from the store go bad in a week, if not shortly after it was bought. Pastuerizing doesn't prolong the life of the milk by much, if at all. It simply kills bacteria, nothing more. Homogonizing the milk is what makes the store bought milk, junk. They add stuff back in, which isn't the real deal. The difference I noticed with raw over the store bought, was the creamyness. Everything tasted better, didn't taste flat.


So the shelf life will be longer with a low white blood cell count, and wont be as sensative to warmth. I had my bulk tank, very first milking in it not work. The compressor was messed up, turned out it was a contactor. Well the milk was 55 degrees when I came down to find it wasn't working. It didn't come back any different than the stuff that was at 38. This is because the bacteria count, and somatic cell count were low. So a somatic cell count of 400,000 wont have the shelf life like a somatic cell count of say 100,000, and so on.


Jeff

pasuriesed milk is no where near the scalding point , and should NOT taste cooked when done. milk processors heat milk at 170 for 30 mins
home pasturissers 150 for 30 min or 161 for 15 seconds, if store bought does not taste cooked then home shouldnt either. now if you forget and leave it too "cook" too long yes ive had it taste cooked...scalding i belive is 200, boiling is 210 isnt it...boiling it will ruin it for sure


shelf life is extended by 7-10 days by pasturising

if you have tested cows, no chance of nieghbors cows getting in with yours, or run off from them AND you machine milk i would say no problem

but hand milking with what ever is on the belly of animal having a chance of falling in, not to mention flies in the summer( i DO know where they have last landed" I dont let my kids drink stuff that flies have swam in or has had "mud" dropped in it. i suppose that is silly of me...

ive had people raised on raw milk "use" my pasturised cow milk, and they have commented that it tastes the same and does not spoil in 3 days like raw will.

I consider our raw milk much better tasting than store-bought. I've never pasteurized any of our milk and would consider it an unnecessary hassle. Mom used to when we were kids because she sold it. It seems store-bought cow's milk is whiter than ours. On the TB issue posted above, I read somewhere it was the workers who had TB spreading it through the milk, not the cows, but if the gov is in control of the data, who knows?

I didn’t know raw milk could spoil in 3 days. Perhaps it depends on how clean you are and how quickly you cool it. We are usually ahead on supply, and we try to clean out the oldest in the frig and it’s usually 3 to 5 days old. Never had bad raw milk at that age. Have sometimes lost some in there over a week and never been bad. Once gave some to a guy at work who grew up on it – took him two weeks to drink and he said it was fine.

On the other hand, last time our cow was dry and we were buying store milk, had a gallon go bad well before the expiration date. I’ve read (don’t know how true) that pasteurization destroys some antibacterial properties of milk.

Sometimes I wonder how calves survive without someone sterilizing their mom’s teats before they nurse.

Me neither. We have always used ours up to two weeks old(we always use it by two weeks, so I've never tested it longer), and its fine. We have a single man that buys milk from us. It always takes him a week plus to use it and its fine. Of course you must keep it cold.

On either milk I suspect there is a rule of thumb for how much each increase in storage temperature decreases shelf life. On grocery store milk: It goes from farm to plant to truck to store, allowing a warming period at each step. How many keep it refrigerated either while continuing to shop or on the way home. Say it is only a half hour, but the milk temperature rises 10 degrees. Then when it is used it sits outside the refrigerator for possibly the length of the meal.

Home milk might be from the cow to the refrigerator within a couple of minutes.

Rather makes sense the quicker the milk is cooled and it being held at a constant low temperture would deter spoilage.

again going by published accounts, raw milk will develop off flavors after 3 days.( as i pasturise what i store i would not know)



i personally keep a fridge for just milk atas close to 32 degrees,

and my milk is as sanitary as the cow it came from. all things i put in contact with the milk is sterilized.

i use raw for hard cheese

Hi DD,
I initially pasteurized my cow's milk until I got all her test results back and I felt confident enough in my milking procedure/ability to think I hadn't messed up her milk too much.

The info that I found back then said to pasteurize milk heat to 145 degrees F (I see you're in Canada so you'll have to do the conversion) for 30 minutes or 160 something for 15 seconds or into the 180's for 1 second. I first tried the 160ish degree method first. That certainly smelled cooked, but didn't taste too cooked (if that makes sense). Mostly I used the 145 degree method. That smelled better and tasted about like store bought milk. I did this on the stove and would stir every few minutes to help distribute the heat. I think this stirring did homogenize the cream as there was less cream than on the raw milk jars. Maybe 1-2 inches less cream in my gallon glass jars.

I found it to be a real pain to pasteurize--heating up only to turn around and cool down, time consuming, less cream, off taste if you get sidetracked and milk cooks. If you are concerned with your milk having too many pathogenic bacteria I guess all that would be considered insurance.

I am now quite happy to drink Sophie's milk raw. I milk in a dirt floored barn that's open to the north and south. If it is too windy or my cow is too dirty I milk her out and give it to the pigs. Sure helps keep them gentle!

One other comment. My cheese book says if you let cheese age for 90 days that will kill any pathogenic bacteria that may have been present in the raw milk. I've read that some others say 60 days is the magic number.

Does breastfeeding your own children count as a dangerous practice? Or should members of LaLeche league pastuerize their milk?

the sarcasm is kinda cute :)

really, there are some risks. Thats fact. People have gotten sick from raw milk. I think its important for folks to understand that. Why? because its good to know what risks you take, Secondly, in case of that one in a whatever (i know its real high, coulndt say if it was "one in a million or what!LOL) chance they do get sick with an otherwise undiagnosed illness, they can inform their healthcare practioner and get treated for it. That is pretty reasonable, I think.

Actually, my own take on it for me and mine is far more along the lines of the Weston Price foundation. I think properly handled raw milk from pasture fed, disease free ( and tested regularly to make sure they stay that way) and properly cared for animals is heathier and safer than the ultrapasteurized stuff in grocery stores.

But,I still beleive folks should know the risks (small as they currently are in the above described situation) as well as the benefits, Thats part of being an adult- knowing the risks and benefits of your options; and making your own decisions.

Raw milk is as good as the person that handles it, prior to it being sold. What I find funny is the fact people dont have a concern for what they buy in the stores, the very same people who would be against Raw milk. Yet look at what happened to lettuce, simple ol' lettuce. Several people died, any hundred got sick. Maybe we should sell cooked lettuce from now on. You cant cook the lettuce, it is sold "fresh". There are other things sold in a store that can be dangerous. Fish, you can get fish that could make you sick, you can get a bad piece of meat. Yet meat, and fish are sold raw, you cook it.


My point is, far more people seem to be getting sick, and some dieing from eating food. I haven't heard one bit of press on any raw milk like you see when there is a recall for meat, etc etc. ANY product can be dangerous if it isn't handled properly, ANY product that is sold raw. However there are MANY MANY products sold in a store that are raw. I find it amusing the fact that doctors will go on and on about how bad raw milk can be, yet more people seem to be getting ill from foods they dont caution anyone about.


Jeff

I think the point that LMonty was trying to make is that the consumer needs to be informed about the risks of raw milk as well as the benefits in order that they might make an informed decision. As careful as a person can be, their cow can be exposed to Lepto by a passing deer or coyote. The neighbor may import cows that have Bangs. Yes, there are tests for these diseases; but who is to say if your cow might be exposed a week after she tests negative for these diseases. We vaccinate for Lepto on a regular basis because Lepto is a problem in this area. There has been more than one case in which the seller of raw milk has been accused of selling a product which made someone sick. If one shares milk then it pays to be very, very careful. I am very particular about cleanliness and sanitation even though I pasteurize our milk. Just because someone choses to pasteurize doesn't mean that they are sloppy or use unsanitary practices in handling the milk. What it all boils down to is, the consumer should be informed so that they can use their right to personal choice in the matter.

the same can be said about proteins for muscle-- try to convince a non-vegetarian of that!

Thanks, Linn; I was having a problem phrasing that- I think you summarized my point very nicely! I appreciate it.

Jeff- youre absolutely right. There's a great deal more food borne illness than most people realize-and from some of the most unexpected places, just like the salad greens! HECK the only episode of food borne poisoning terrorism in the United States occurred at SALAD BAR, for goodness sake!

The newest thinking is that much if not most of what we see as the one and two day stomach bugs (that most people incorrectly call the one day flu!) is probably food borne. If true, that would make food borne illness one of the most common illnesses in our culture. Most of those cases are believed to be improper preparation or storage, on th econsumers end of things.

The ones that make to press- are usually the larger, multistate trackable clusters of illness that are single source- just like the ones we've seen lately.

Thats one of the reasons I believe that growing your own, and using natural methods and knowing how to avoid contaminating your food at home is important. I had a very bad case of food borne illness once-ended up needing IV's, and took two weeks to get close to normal. Happened right after I'd been on antibiotics- my first day back to work after being hospitlaized for a dentist caused case of phlebitis.

I had no normal gut flora to fight it off. So out of the 30 or so of us that got sick- I was the sickest. A good example of host/pathogen interaction. Also a good example of an iatrogenic illness-the second one that month, as I caught it at the hospital I wrked at! The warming ovens had broken, and it wasnt noticed right before they served dinner. The leftoveer shrimp scampi for lunch bit back. Tasted fine, too.


Thats why I am a bit careful about food safety. It made quite an impression on me. Theres been few other incidents in my life and practice that have made me a believer in its importance in reducing illness and suffering.

I didnt bring that up before because the thread was about milk- so I confined my remarks to milk only. Personally I cant wait to start eating my own home produced foods- milk, meat and veggies. I think they will be more health giving and less risky than what I can buy in most stores. And I think they'll help keep me a healthcare worker and not a healthcare consumer! LOL

Food safety is important, and I agree with your points, its a wide ranging issue. I got interested in it that time I spent 5 hrs on the bathroom floor, communing with my friend Ralph!! I have sought out information on it, and hopefully have learned a few things along the way. Most of the healthcare workers I know havent- they go by what they learned back in school, and teaching about raw milk products is often done -its historicly important, as it was a significant contribution of public health in the late 1940's reducing illness and improving food safety with a national impact. At the tiem, it was significant and widespread problem-not a rare occurrence like the outbreaks we talked about above. And IMHO that's one of the reasons its been handled differently- an occasional occurrence that can be sourced to an "oops" is not likely to create the action and changes that the raw milk "problem" went through back then. Thank goodness!

Are the rules in some states too restrictive? Yea, almost 60 years later, with new testing, knowledge and technology- I think so, the rules arent quite as needed now, as they were then. I think the record of safety that states that do allow raw milk sales shows that. And I wish they'd put a few of the bucks they spend terrorizing the family farmers that could be benefiting from sales of raw milk products; into researchig the benefits of raw milk and pasture products comapred to their spending them on enforcement. That might change things. And help create new customers for us.

If pasteurization is supposed to protect us all, can someone explain why I’ve had pasteurized store milk go bad within a week? Obviously it doesn’t kill all the bugs. And if we rely on pasteurization to make up for all our other failures of sanitation, proper temperatures, etc, what happens if the pasteurizer fails?

I guess if we can pasteurize later, we can have cows laying in 2 feet of crap, and it’s okay. Because I don’t pasteurize, I’m out there 3 times daily with a manure fork ensuring clean bedding.

I guess if we pasteurize later, we can feed high grain rations that promote dangerous E.coli strains.

With our thousand cow dairies, cows coming and going, more risk of disease transmission. In a closed herd of a family cow or two, nearly zero risk of contracting serious disease.

With the accepted commercial dairy practices, we’d better hope pasteurization works.

You're kidding, right? There were three high profile cases in Washington last year of e coli breakouts from raw milk. Why you haven't heard about these illnesses is a mystery to me.

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Publicat/2006_news/06-154.htm

In general, a recall of raw milk wouldn't be wide spread because it isn't in the kind of demand that fresh vegetables are. Recalls are usually limited to specialty stores in small areas. People get sick and die from drinking raw milk every year. People don't get sick and die from eating spinach every year.

Here's a theory that I was told:

When milking your cow, you are very close to her, your head snuggled against her belly. Whatever you have, you're giving to your cow. She's developing antibodies to fight it. When you drink her milk, you are getting the antibodies for whatever you have. So drinking milk that you personally milked may have special benefits for you.

Has anyone else ever heard this? What do you think?

Genebo
Paradise Farm
Church Road, VA

But then again, I don't suppose there are too many breastfeeding women that lay naked with their chest planted in manure piles either. :p I would not be so worried about drinking raw milk from my own cow as I would be from someone else's, who I have no idea of whether they are truly practicing safe milking procedures or not.
This has always given me the heebie jeebies; seeing a dairy farmer's cows standing in soggy manure up to their bellies, and the next thing you know, there's the milk truck parked there. I'm thinking, ewwww, I hope he cleans them off good before milking. But like you said, pasteurizing counteracts that, right? One would hope. I could never understand why, when one has 1000+ acres, they rather have their cows in a small 1/4 paddock standing in mud. Would not giving them more room to move around be healthier for them?
My main concern is: would it be just as healthy for my kids also? I would probably pasteurize provided it is the same milk pretty much as raw, but due to a guilty conscience in part......I would be devastated if my kids became sick from raw milk. I would try it myself though, that's different. :p

I was just wondering if anyone else would really notice a difference between the two, taste- or texture-wise, or when making foods such as cheese or butter, if they didn't know which it really was.

DD