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Dexters - Learned a Lot Today
Learned a lot about Dexters today - some of which is scary.
1. Dexters can carry the Bulldog gene which is a recessive gene that when expressed causes calfs to be aborted and born with virtually no bone structure. I.E. only buy Bulldog free tested stock. 2. Come mainly in black (least expensive), Dun (next least expensive), Red (very expensive). 3. Come polled and horned. Polled more expensive. Therefore a polled homozygous red heifer is the most expensive - in the neighborhood of $2K at 90 days old. |
Hi Yucca,
In Dexters the Chondrodysplasia (bulldog) gene is NOT recessive. It is a dominant gene. Mating a carrier bull to a carrier female has a 25% probability of producing a bulldog calf, a 50% probability of producing a carrier calf and a 25% of producing a non-carrier calf. Mating a carrier of either sex to a non-carrier of the opposite sex has a 50% probability of producing either a carrier calf but no chance of a bulldog calf. Mating two non-carriers produces only non-carriers calves: no carrier or bulldog calves. IF you can find a homozygous polled red heifer for 2K I would say that's a great price, if the heifer was heterozygous polled that would be more in line. |
OK need to back track some.
The last heterozygous polled red heifer I knew of that was sold went for 3K. Their numbers are very few probably less than 75 animals. As far as a homozygous polled red heifer, I personally don't know of any, my guess would be less than a handful. Hope this helps. |
Barbara - what you described in your genetics example is classic recessive gene expression. Its the same as blue vs brown eyes in humans. Brown eyed male who carries recessive blue mated to brown eyed female who has recessive blue gives 25% brown eyed with no recessive, 50% browned eyed with recessive blue, and 25% blue eyed double recessive. If bulldog was dominant the heterozygous animals would all die from the dominant expression of the gene same as the homozygous carriers do.
And although I am wrong about the actual cost of a homozygous (homozygous negative bulldog) polled red heifer, they still would be the most expensive. I personnaly couldn't care less about the color, but I sure am not interested in any with the bulldog gene. Any I would consider buying would have to have been tested or come from two certified bulldog gene free parents. BTW - I spoke to a friend of yours today in Comfort, TX today about buying a cow or heifer later in the year. |
I already know a lot about Dexters, and I'm quite happy with mine. Always room to learn a little more though.... (someday I'd like to get a Jersey just so I can compare)
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When a calf (or fetus) receives a double dose of the gene, it fails to develop properly and either aborts early or is stillborn. There are no cattle alive that have two of these genes. All living Dexters that carry a single copy of the gene are dwarves. It is only by mating two of these carrier cattle that you can pass on two copies of the gene to the fetus. All other mating combinations will pass on either none or one copy of the gene, so can not produce a bulldog calf. You have the right idea in wanting all your Dexters to be tested for the presence of the gene. That will give you 100% peace of mind about never having a bulldog calf, since parents that don't carry the gene can't pass it on. Many of us love the little dwarf Dexters and choose to keep them. However, I only keep a male dwarf. All of my females are non-carriers. Therefore, I will never have a bulldog calf. I may have some more dwarves, though, and that is very fine. Genebo Paradise Farm Church Road, VA |
Chondrodysplasia is a large word, and can be very confusing when first learning about Dexters.
Once you identify (test) you animals to see if they are carriers or not it is really very simple. Thanks Genebo and the rest for explaining it better than I could. We all have different ways of handling the gene. I have chosen to have my whole herd tested and they are all non-carriers. That means I will never have to test any of their offspring. Ah, you spoke to Mickey, she is a great person, I'm sure she'll treat you right. |
Yes I spoke to Mickey and we are going to see her animals this next weekend.
My college minor was in genetics and whatever people want to call the "bulldog gene" - I want no part of it. I NEVER allow major faults to be bred into any of mine stock - at least knowingly. It is good for people to know about the Bulldog gene because as Mickey indicated - not everyone is willing to either talk about it in their herd, and even less seem to be willing to test for it. |
YFR,
I hope we can welcome you to the wonderful world of Dexters soon then! You have a great bunch of people in Texas, they will help you out. See if you can set time aside to come to Colorado in June for our AGM and show, it will be a good one. Carol |
I will change from Beefmasters to Dexters soon - that is not a question. I have to wait until my cow has her calf in late February and wean it in June to sell her.
I will however be VERY CAREFUL who I get one from and it will not have the bulldog gene whatsoever. Of coourse that is how I buy all of my stock. You cannot ever go wrong in getting the best quality when beginning a new herd/flock. Superior foundation stock is the only way to go even if you don't plan on raising very many of a type of critter. The way I figure it is I can raise twice as many Dexters as I can Beefmasters and unfortunatly that will be 2 cows with calves. The calves will be either for selling or for my own meat or sell one and eat one (the boys better watch out). I figure I can home butcher a 600 lb animal. That would be a 375 lb hanging carcass and that in 185 lb halves is manageable for my neighbor and I. A 1200 lb beefmaster steer is a bit more than we want to handle. |
YFR,
I too have tested all my animals and have a Chondro. free herd. Carol |
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Dexters will also be at The Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo again this year in March. Wish I could make it but it's smack in the middle of calving time. If you can't make it to Houston or Colorado, there is the 2008 AGM in TEXAS :hobbyhors . I'm planning for that one now. |
Something you folks are missing out on when relaying the 25%/50%/25% ratios of free/carrier/affected.... That is ONLY a mathematical formula for predicting the possibility of what MAY happen when breeding carrier to carrier-- it is NOT what happens in the REAL WORLD....
There is NO SUCH THING as a simple recessive-- that has been proven and verified. If you like a solid black bull, and he is "clear" that does NOT mean he is not carrying an allele that may help future generations express the undesired characteristics if/when he is bred to a carrier cow. The prepotency of an animal may or may not mask characteristics for generations, then someone may do what they thought was a well researched breeding, and wind up trying to lay the blame for a 'mishap' on the owner of a sire or the breeder of their female. when what really happened was Nature. I find it laughable that so many breeders 9 of any animal) state they have perfected the "art" when their products do well, then call breeding a 'crapshoot" when the results are poor. They refuse to acknowledge that there is a force bigger than all of us, that can throw a major wrench into our plans. That force is not going to follow a man-made chart designed to predict the POTENTIAL POSSIBILTY of an occurance, even though that chart was developed after years of recordkeeping. |
Terry W,
the Chondro gene in Dexters is Dominant. A tested clear bull is just that, a tested clear bull. Carol |
Terry W,
You have given a good picture of what happens with a recessive gene. However, the chondro gene in Dexters is dominant. As Carol K said, if a Dexter is tested to be free of the gene, then there is zero chance of that gene being passed on to that Detxer's progeny, unless it comes from the other partner in the breeding, who is a carrier of the gene. I'll repeat what I've said before: the chondro gene is not a stealth gene. It shows it's presence in the shape of the animals who carry it. That's where the short legged dwarf Dexters come from. The long legged non-carrier Dexters do not carry the gene in any form and can't pass it on. Ever. DNA testing will tell about those Dexters who defy the stereotypes and can't be positively identified by sight. Here's the odds: Mating a non-carrier to a non-carrier gives a zero chance of producing a carrier calf. No ifs ands or buts. Mating a non-carrier to a carrier gives a 50% chance of producing a non-carrier calf that is totally free of the gene and can never pass it on. The other 50% chance will produce a dwarf carrier calf, with one copy of the gene and the possibilty of passing it on. Mating a carrier to a carrier gives a 25% chance of producing a non-carrier calf that is totally free of the gene and can never pass it along. Another 50% chance will produce a carrier calf with one copy of the gene and the chance of passing it along. The final 25% chance will produce an embryo with two copies of the gene. This embryo will abort early or be born dead. This is the infamous "bulldog calf". Obviously, no one needs to ever have a bulldog calf. The reason that some were born in the past is that no one knew exactly how the gene worked until an Australian study defined it. The only reason that a bulldog calf might occur today is that someone might not be informed or else choose to take that chance because they so love the little dwarf carrier Dexters. I like the dwarf Dexters, but won't chance the bulldog calf. Therefore, I only keep long legged non-dwarf females. Many people have opted to only keep long legged non-carriers of both sexes, so for them, this whole issue is meaningless. They will never breed a dwarf carrier calf. Genebo Paradise Farm |
Genebo, Very well said.
I was looking for one of those applauding smiley faces to use, just didn't see it. |
Barbara,
Thank you, but I made a mistake when I originally posted. I had the odds wrong for non-carrier to carrier. I edited the post to correct it. Out of 11 births from my carrier bulls over my non-carrier cows, I've had 7 non-carrier calves and 4 carriers. I believe that the difference between my luck and 50/50 is that the carrier semen is not as likely to fertilize. That and the possibility that an egg fertilized by carrier semen may not implant. The result here being that it takes another cycle before the cow is bred, and it isn't noticed. Genebo Paradise Farm |
"Obviously, no one needs to ever have a bulldog calf. The reason that some were born in the past is that no one knew exactly how the gene worked until an Australian study defined it. The only reason that a bulldog calf might occur today is that someone might not be informed or else choose to take that chance because they so love the little dwarf carrier Dexters."
AND UNFORTUNATELY as a breed becomes popular less importance is usually placed on purging the herd of "defective" animals. The almighty dollars wins far too frequently. In each of the forums you occasionally hear about Linebreeding vs Inbreeding. They are essentially the same - you can get some spectacular animals this way as you double up the positive genes. You can also get some disasters genetically. The SECRET is not in which animals you keep, but in ensuring you KILL or neuter ALL but the extraordinary animals. Money however gets in the way of doing this - look at dogs and AKC - its amazing how many good breeds of dogs have become popular and subsequently become garbage due to selling of inferior animals. It is possible to eliminate the Bulldog gene totally from the Dexter breed, but doing so would severly impact the numbers of the animals available. TOO MANY BREEDERS just don't care. I will only have Bulldog free Dexters when I decide to purchase one. |
Genebo-- EVERYTHING is polygenetic-- Just because ONE LOCUS is not showing up in a test, does NOT mean the animal is not hiding factors, yet unidentified, that contribute to the expression later on down the line.. ALWAYS breed expecting something "odd" to crop up--Even from "tested clear" animals.
YFL-- A GOOD breeding program Does not abse itself on the across the board refusal to use something that may not be perfect. It is the imperfections that provide for genetic diversity to remain, and keep the overall population healthy. I can't help it that I am a Diversity freak. A well respected geneticist died recently--he was my uncle--AS far as the AKC and registered dogs go-- it is the elimination of "flaws" that lead to the shrinking gene pools and health issues. I know too much about what has gone on in THAT venue--Color genetics can and do affect sensory genetics. They affect nervousesystem genetics, as well. Just because a gene is ALWAYS Dominant does not mean several unknowns are not important in the expression of that gene.. THAT is what I am trying to tell you-- Just because you see no carrots in the soup, does not mean there were none used in the stock..... |
"YFL-- A GOOD breeding program Does not abse itself on the across the board refusal to use something that may not be perfect. It is the imperfections that provide for genetic diversity to remain, and keep the overall population healthy."
Can't imagine any harm being caused by only selecting Bulldog gene free animals to build a herd from. You may start with whatever animals you choose for diversity - I will just choose NOT to purchase your animals. |
My little Dexter cow is the noisiest cow we have ever had. She is a real communicator. Her moo is really loud for such a small cow. I love the funny personality of the Dexter. She seems much more intelligent than our other cows. We bought two more Dexters right before Christmas. They had never been handled and were pretty wild. DH dehorned them both and we keep them in a lot close to the barn. Their personalities have undergone a marvelous change since we have worked with them. I have AI'd two of our Dexters. With semen available from bulls free of the bulldog gene it is not hard to be sure you don't get a bulldog calf.
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[QUOTE=YuccaFlatsRanch
Can't imagine any harm being caused by only selecting Bulldog gene free animals to build a herd from. You may start with whatever animals you choose for diversity - I will just choose NOT to purchase your animals.[/QUOTE] I have no problem with that-- that just means that I will steer clear of your breeding program, as well-- simnply because of the narrow focus of the program-- The narrow foucus is what destroys a breed, and until genetics becomes an emphasis in your daily life, rather than " the perfect head" or "most milk" or even, "leg shape" then you will inadvertently be breeding yourself into a situation where no matter what you cross out to could cause a 'disaster' Now, back to tutoring the "Equine major" physiology students....who don't seem to realize what human circulation has to do with riding a horse--- |
Linn,
You're right! You're also right about the Dexter's personalities. All mine have distinct personalities, but my bull is my favorite. He's very predictable. He'll come into the barn and stand near the hay rick, waiting for me to drop down some hay. Then he won't begin eating until I come down from the loft. I like it best when he comes to the gate to get bread. I feed him a slice, he takes it just with his lips, then swoosh!, it disappears like a dollar bill in a vending machine. I lock my chickens up after dark each night. I walk through the Dexters without any thought to danger. They're so gentle and I always have a pat and a rub for each one as I go by. All but the youngest one. She's just a month old and hasn't learned to trust, yet. My Dexters are very quiet. You never hear one of them unless something is up. Maybe a calf wandered too far from mama or a dog passes by. Or the neighbor's cows come over to the fence. Then my bull puts on his very best singing voice and goes to courting. Genebo Paradise Farm Church Road, VA |
"I have no problem with that-- that just means that I will steer clear of your breeding program, as well-"
Well avoiding my breeding would be your choice. In this fight I have no OX TO GORE - I don't own any Dexters - YET. However, "TOMBOY" and others have gone through a awful lot of effort to ensure their breeding has eliminated this "dead end gene" from their herd and as such are a much safer bet for a strarter herd. For others to see - Terry W - what is your OX TO GORE?? Do you own Dexters which are not free of this gene, do you own any Dexters, and if so could my posting be goring your ox a little bit?? If you don't, what is the reason for becoming involved in a discussion of Dexter genetics - an urge to educate the unwashed masses?? I'll lay my bets along the lines of Genebo's statement "Mating a non-carrier to a non-carrier gives a zero chance of producing a carrier calf. No ifs ands or buts." |
I am looking for my starters-- I have plenty of experience in genetic 'accidents'occurring even in the "best of the best" in other species.
I have a strong interest in genetic diversity FOR THE SAKE OF BREED PRESERVATION AND GENETIC HEALTH--- AS a breeder of POLLED Barbados Blackbellies,( do not confuse with their "offspring breeds) I HAVE to consider the use of rams with scurs,and ewes that are carry scur genetics simply because if the scurred genetics were totally avoided, there would be NO BBs in this country-- It appears that the Dexters here in the US have a much smaller genetic gene pool than most of you seem to think-- And many people simply refuse to believe that genetics is a very tricky issue to deal with-- You won't see the resulting problems that a breeding program with such a narrow focus will produce for many years-- I should hope you do not have the mindset of the local "alpaca expert" here does-- "Well, when that happens, we will be long dead" That Alpaca farm is owned by a pair of Veterinarians that have a small animal practice that benefits from the maladies bought about by narrow breeding programs. There is areqson, why in Eurpoean countries, the breeding programs of many animal species and breeds are overseen by a specific group-- it is to keep the animals healthy IN THE LONG RUN-- NOT to enable someone to benefit from a fad. If I find a known "bulldog" gene carrier that HAS THE ATTRIBUTES I WANT, I will use that animal!! I will use it KNOWING there is a potential if bred to an animal from "bulldog free" genetics-- BUT, I have always made breeding decisions based on factors that are not market driven. And more times than I care to admit, I have warned some "influential" breeders that there would be a problem in a certain mating's offspring, and the warning was ignored--only to prove that I was correct. Many times-- I made my remarks based on how the male and female were interacting with each other. See, animals instinctively avoid relatedness if they can--it is our influence that causes such tight programs, and insists on forcing the females to get pregnant, or permit the males to reproduce. your posting? Heck-- I just see too much ignorance based on the "so and so says" form of education-- and not on real life experience. I attend every health seminar I can, even on animals species I do not intend to own, simply to find out WHAT the genetic issues are... Do YOU? I lambasted a research paper I used doing my own research-- and when the prof asked why-- I SHOWED him, using SKeletal materials we had on campus WHY the research paper written by a bunch of CORNELL VEterinarians- used testing that was poorly designed from the start. My uncle would have been proud. He never got to read that paper... Dexters are listed with the ALBC-- are you going to help the overall genetic diversity, or harm it? Are you going to breed functional, multipurpose animals, or animals that are to look pretty in the pasture and in colorfull advertising flyers? Are you breeding for money, or food and work? Do you understand genetic transmission, complete and incomplete expressions, AND dependency enough to work with them? NOTHING is a simple dominant or recessive-- even Cornell University understands that.....but they published research based on poor methods... and it was even peer reviewed. I guess the cronies support each other-- that is how they make their money.. Now, the paper on kinship recognition-- Wonderfull research-- took into account all the variables that could be controlled- including fostering onto other dams... |
Nuff SAid--
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Terry,
If you choose to breed an animal with a lethal genetic defect, that's your choice. Carol |
I just finished reading Beryl Rutherfords's book MY LOVE AFFAIR WITH THE DEXTER for the second time. She consistently line bred her Dexters to get rid of the Bulldog gene in her herd. The Woodmagic herd is famous throughout the world and Beryl Rutherford was a well resepcted member of the Dexter Council in Great Britian. Her experience in breeding Dexters has certainly been an inspiration to me. In fact I just ordered some Woodmagic Hedgehog III semen from Cindy Williams.
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Make a leap and research....
SICKLE CELL !!!! If you can't look it up and make the leap-- then you need to get out of genetics--There are reasons why carrier status is so important!!! Find out WHY the "bulldog" gene is naturally present.... What protection did it offer...
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"Dexters are listed with the ALBC-- are you going to help the overall genetic diversity, or harm it? Are you going to breed functional, multipurpose animals, or animals that are to look pretty in the pasture and in colorfull advertising flyers? Are you breeding for money, or food and work? Do you understand genetic transmission, complete and incomplete expressions, AND dependency enough to work with them?"
No I am going to breed a limited number of Dexter cattle to provide my family with excellent beef and a few CHOICE heifers/bull calves to sell so that my family eats for free. With a 9 month gestation period, I can't afford to wait 7 months for my "LATEST GENETIC EXPERIMENT" to prove to be fatal. As for me I will buy my stock from those people who have cared enough to breed only the finest to the finest and the exclusion of the Bulldog gene is one criteria I CHOOSE to define finest. I suspect that the most careful breeders, the ones with the greatest knowledge of their stock are also the same ones who have actively worked to eliminate this lethal gene. You may raise whatever you want - I just will choose to steer clear of your stock. I'll let you work on the genetic experments and IF you should ever happen by chance to raise superior animals I will buy from others who have bought from you AFTER they incorporate your genetics into their herd and also eliminate the lethal gene from the addition. The costs of stock and their values in the future don't give me the luxury of experimentation. |
This may be somewhat off topic, but the question arose in my mind from the last posting by YuccaFlats...if I have 6 acres of basically orchard grass hayfield, and a family of three who likes to eat beef 4 nights of 7, how many feeder head can that carry to make our beef dinner nights "free" to us? Is it possible?
My 1/2 Jersey bull steer that is 6 mo. old is still gaining over 3# per day! Still nursing, so far as I know. It's not fenced off YET! Doing that this year... Thanks for input on this one... |
They say that the Dexters are truely a 1 acre = 1 cow type of animal. That means that with my registered California Red sheep (12 head now), and 3 Boer goats, I can just about get by with 2-3 Dexter cows. I currently have a pregnant Beefmaster cow (equal to about 2 Dexter Cows) and her 17 month old calf who is headed to freezer camp soon. This calf is about 1200 lbs and really for just my wife and I, provides too much high quality beef, even though I split him with my neighbor (also a family of 2). The Dexter steer would be much more manageable since the steer would be about half the Beefmasters size. We might even be able to kill and butcher an animal of that size here at home and save additional money for processing.
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Yucca,
Did you make it over to see Mickeys animals? |
Haven't made it yet. I have been selling Anatolian SHepherd puppies the past weekends (people all want to come when they are off - being retired I can't understand why) and with the wet weather I just didn't have time. Looking at cows is great fun - but not in the rain. Will try again this next weekend if she is available. Might like to come and see yours sometime too.
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You're welcome to come and visit, we're semi retired working Friday & Saturday only. Life is good.
Are you complaining about the rain????? My pastures could use lots more, even though it has delayed putting up new fencing. e-mail me if you like bcnetti@gvtc.com |
Complain about rain - not in this lifetime - just choosy about what I will do. Selling puppies took priority last weekend. Got to earn the money to buy cows somehow.
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The fencing and planting cost money, so the fact is, there's no free lunch! Some people say that they are able to raise their own beef for a dollar a pound, but others say it costs them two dollars. Genebo Paradise Farm |
Thanks, Genebo...
This orchard grass goes dormant, but returns every year. There were still "live" clumps of it a few weeks ago. One of the local ranchers who did custom cutting for me said it was orchard. The local ag agent thought 4 cow-calf pairs would work, if I just perimeter fenced it off...not sure I'd want that many cows. All the cow I want more than I already have is a smaller one to milk. Even tho' she's 3/4 Guernsey, Ginger got to be HUGE at near 1500#. I guess it's the 1/4 Angus she has? There's a grazing conference on the 25th of the month I can get to, put on by the local soil and conservation district...$20...that might have some good info for me...speakers from U.I. and W.S.U. among others...all day affair. |
By all means, go to the grazing conference. Join the grazing council. You'll get more information than you can handle.
Milk isn't free. It costs grass, or hay, or something. The more milk your cow produces, the more feed she eats. That's why a Dexter fits the bill for so many people. A moderate amount of milk for a lot less feed. Especially when you don't have a need for all that milk you get from a big dairy cow. The grazing council will have charts for you to estimate how much extra feed a milk cow will require. Genebo Paradise Farm Church Road, VA |
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