Water lines (keep m from freezin')
 

Going to be installing watering bowls in the stalls in the next few weeks. We want to be able to use them year round and wanted to get some alternate ideas on how to keep the lines from freezing other than running heat tape along the entire system.

Have you herd of Heat Trace? Seems to be some new form of heat tape but i have not found anyone locally that sells it and have no idea as to it's cost.

I have also herd that nothing is necessary because the cows give off enough heat to keep the inside of the barn from freezing. Is this true?

We were planning on using PEX tubing. It wont burst if it does freeze.

Tx,
MaryF

Reply
 

Sometimes cows will keep the barn warm enough and sometimes not. It depends on how well insulated the barn is, how many cows are in it, and how cold it gets.

As for PEX, the pipe is the least expensive part. If you use a pipe that won't burst when it freezes, that just means the pressure is transferred more to the water bowls, which are the expensive part, and WILL burst..

If you need to do something, try to see if you can set up a system to keep the water moving through the lines with a small pump and a reservoir. The heat tape can work but likes to cause fires once in a while too.

My husband and I were just discussing this over dinner. If anyone knows of a way to keep water lines or hoses from freezing, we'd sure like to hear it! :)

If you are figuring on a long term arrangement it may pay you to run a loop system. you run the water in a continuous loop through the system and back to the beginning using a circulator pump, not too expensive and the moving water wont freeze unless the internal temp of the barn gets down around zero. Moving water requires much lower temps to freeze, this wont help the bowls unless used in conjunction with a small water heater, which will keep your lines safe and warm with no danger of freezing at all and furnish the critters with warm water as well.

That circulator pump I should look into myself. I will have 20 animals in the barn, there is hay aloft, and plan on closing off some places that leak a lot of air (not make it stuffy, just areas the cold comes pouring in). That barn of ours us about 5-10 degrees warmer than outside WITHOUT cows. So with 20 bodys, hopefully it stays warm enough. But that circulator pump sounds interesting.


Jeff

Our water lines are buried 4 feet down and our barn faucet drains itself so it can't freeze. I have a wonderful 16 gallon heated bucket that just plugs into a regular socket and keeps the water at 50-60 degrees. I got it last winter and it was wonderful not having to beat ice out of the cow's regular water bucket every day.

General experience is that the cows drink enuf and give off enuf heat to keep them working. However you may not have enoough cows to keep it working if I remember how big the barn was frrom earlier pix. The circulating pump sounds like a good idea. I Would not use heat tape due to fire hazard and electrity failure. At one farm we ran a shop heater over nite on the cold side off the barn. Usually only a couple of spots on the end would ffreeze and it generally worked itself free as the girls got up and drinking. There was a large dairy that only used garden houses and big round stock tanks. A couple huundred foot of hose was strung up over the rafters in the freestall barn and in turn emptied into the tanks. A couple times a day you would speed up or slow the water down with the common splitter. As long as a trickle came through the tanks and hoses would not freeze. Maybe you could hook up some type of drain to an outside tank for the other cattle. Oh the joys of split water lines, half flooded barns and -29 degree weather come to mind.

The barn is a 30x40 steel quanset "S" type. In the barn are 4 box stalls one is almost 2x the size of the rest. We have 2 cows, 2 heifers, and 2 heifer calfs in the barn.

Good point about the blowing the valve on the bowl if i use PEX. I don't like PVC because it becomes so brittal after time. Copper is too expensive. What would you use?

The bowls I have ordered are http://www.partsdeptonline.com/cgi-b...exact_match=on

Item 67812 Enameled Bowl With SS Paddle

(hope the link works)

Using heat tape does pose a risk and adds to my electric bill. That is way I am looking for an alternative. I like the circulator pump and would be somewhat easy to impliment. This still leaves the bowl valve and the line from the circulating line to the bowl vunariable to freezing. I would still need something to keep this warm. I have seen people put a 100W bulb under the valve but this seems in-efficent and the cow would have to deal with the light all the time.

What do you think of this stuff?

http://www.lmimg.com/heat_trace_cable.asp

I would also think it would be a fire hazard, with hay and the like. I have galv. steel in the barn. The water pipe doubles as a neck rail, so it is dual purpose. Metal can break, however if temperatures do pose a risk, and I notice some freezing. I can always drain the pipes, shut the water off, and at this point they can be watered outside (not cows yet). I wonder if a circulator pump can be setup to circulate the line coming from the well, around through the water lines, and back. One problem though, would an inspector like that idea?


Jeff

I would say to connect your supply line for the bowls in a complet loop have the water supply connetcted to it through a backflow preventor. The backflow preventor sould take care of the inspector.

As for the well, I would think you would run the risk of contaminating the well. Plus the well pump is $$$ more expensive to replace than a $$ circuiling $$ pump.

Problem is, at the moment I am SOL, as the only way for me to do a loop is to run more line back to where I have the water coming in. However the water that is in the line from the well would still be sitting, not moving unless they drink. One other thing too, I will have a water bowl per 2 animals to start off, and with them drinking, and moving that water, it might not freeze. 1.5" line is what I have. I had to build for the future, as that line will supply both sides, and when 30 are drinking, 3/4" wont supply the cow at the end with water, etc..


Jeff

These ideas sound interesting... I'm getting prepared to install a solar powered (12volt) pump down in the well inside my barn. I'm planning to have the pump down about four feet below the surface so it won't freeze, and only pump water up into the 25 gal trough when a float switch calls for it. When the pump turns off it should backdrain and prevent freezing. Only time will tell of course and I'm open to suggestions since I'd rather get it right the first time. Last two years I've been using a pitcher pump but must pour hot water into it first to defrost it. Also have two more cows this year and the recovery level of the well (shallow) is only about 8 gallons per hour so I'm going to try to just keep the trough topped off every time they drink from it. Anyway, it's a small pony pump with an impeller rather than the diaphragm pump I use out in the pasture during summer months. I guess diaphragm pumps (by their very nature) won't backdrain so I figured I'd start with a cheap little intermittent duty marine pump. I'll let everyone know how it turns out later on after the temps drop into the single digits and the daylight hours decrease to recharge my batteries.

Circulating
 

A lot of water bowls are set up so you can put the pipe into the top or bottom of the bowl, so you can circulate the water by having it come in one side and out the other then only the valve is unprotected. Then you have to look into which valves are available to you, some freeze a lot easier than others.

The water bowls I have, have that option you mentioned Dalek. So what do you do? Run a plastic line along the floor, T each spot off, and run the water back to the line, and keep it moving that way?

I know how cold settles, while heat rises.



Jeff

You are saying that most bowls have the option to connect the water from the back or the bottom. We can use this option to our advantage to flow water in one port and out the other. Sort of like this:

http://www.islefarms.com/circ.jpg

This the idea?

Now the question is how do we deal with keeping the valve from freezing?

i know the flat type of electrical heat tape is not approved for anything but metal pipe, and never let the tape overlay itself.

i heat traced some plastic pipe for a waterheater i placed in the attic of a house i owned.. my wife and i came back one night to a flooded ket. when i went up into the attic, i found that the heat tape had caught fire, burning into a nearby rafter.. God looks out for fools . the heat melted the plastic water pipe and the spray of water put the fire out.

the higher quality stuff (others posted)may be ok.

I guess a person could add in one of these:

http://www.rheem.com/consumer/catalo...ail.asp?id=406

and plug it into something that would keep it form getting too hot:

http://www.surplussales.com/Thermal/Theraml-1.html

Watlow 30° to 250°F
Temperature Controller

Just set it to say... 50 deg and strap the sensor to the pipe and when the pipe gets cold enough it kick the heater on. I think this would keep the valves from freezing as well.

There are two kinds of barns, warm and cold. A warm barn tries to keep winter out and heat in. The biggest problem with a cold barn is moisture leading to health problems.

A cold barn is just that. Keep out the breeze, but let the air in for a dry air setting. This is what I do. MUCH better for animals. This is why you see modern barns with the tarp walls that are lowered for warm days and up for cold days.

To keep water open, I water out of tanks with heaters in them. To fill the tank, I have a build a wooden box around my water supply. This box is about 4 feet wide, 4 feet tall, and about 3 feet deep. The top is hinged. The walls and top are insulated. I keep the hose attached to the water supply and when I haved filled everything, the hose gets wrapped up back in the box next to the water supply.

I heat this box with two 100 watt light bulbs. It gets 10-30 below zero where I live, and it works great.

Ok, I see a problem, or at least think I do. The way it looks in the diagram is that you are running water from one bowl, through it, and catching an overflow or something to the next bowl. If thats the case your water will be able to come backwards into the last bowl and over flow it. I would think you would need to set each bowl separate, feeding it off the main loop. As to the valve freezing, is there one on each bowl? if so you should be able to insulate the base under it, with an enclosed space well insulated the water itself will keep the bowl and valves frost free. If that is not the case I will have to look at the system you are using a bit closer.

No, the valve has the option to connect the supply from the back or the bottom. Was thinking of flowing the water in the back port and out the bottom port to the rear port of the next bowl and so on...

Ok, maybe a little less technical that the circulating pump, but do you think this will work:
I currently have a garden hose siphoning out of a spring. Supposedly, (have not been here a full winter yet) the spring does not freeze. If that is the case, can I run the hose into one end of the barn, attach it to existing galvanized through the barn, and drain it out the other end of the barn, just leaving it on a trickle? There are a number of drinking cups attached to the galvanized existing pipe. Will keeping the water on just a little keep the entire system from freezing?
This used to be a milking bank barn, but I don't keep the milkhouse heated like the previous owner did, and this is where the well water entered the barn. I'll have 8-10 swine, 9 beef cattle of various ages, and a few goats in a 40x100 area.
Thanks.

I would think a water flow that is moving at a fast rate, and the pipe being full @ 40PSI would keep things fine. However, with a slow water flow there is a good chance it could freeze, only because there isn't a pressurized volume moving through the pipes.


Jeff

Your idea could work, but I see the need for a check valve on the last bowl, or the line pressure itself could cause overflow. Circulation pumps arent positive flow by nature, they merely increase pressure differentials between inlet and outlet sides moving water in a given direction. I would run the system in parallel rather than in series from one bowl to the next..... but then if I were smart I would be rich! I do hope this works out well for you.

I guess i dont understand. How would the last bowl or any bowl over flow unless you held the valve open on the bowl? While both connections on the bowl are being used, the valve is not being defeted. So in effect, the bowl connectors are bing used in place of a tee and using the warmth of the water to heat the metal of the bowl enough to keep the valve from freezing.


Here is what I had in mind for a heater: (had a link to homedepot but didn't work)

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...4.0&lpage=none


The thermostat can be set as low as 65deg F

I found a cheep pump. (But would be open to suggestions!)

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=1479

Well today while fixing some initial leaks on my new water system (main water line, water bowl line wont be running till late October). It is amazing how much pressure, and volume that 1.5" pipe puts out. With a line pressure of 45psi, I had a stream of water flowing out of the hose of about 15' or so. Now after seeing this, and remember what the old 3/4" line put out. If they are drinking, and moving that water, it should not freeze as easy.

Now as far as pressure goes. Keep in mind, a pressure guage might be essential with any pump. That pump you linked could be capable of high pressures, not sure how high. But our barn well, 300+' puts out 100+psi if connected direct, without a pressure switch. With a closed loop design, where the water is circulating, without some sort of regulator (pressure switch), it could exceed the pressure of the line. Now, one thing that comes to mind that might not increase pressure would be the fact the volume of water would be the same. But here is the problem, figuring a way to let new water in, without the pump pushing the old water against the new flow. Too bad there wasn't a way to have something setup like an "auto purge". Where the entire water system flushes out twice a day, during off times. Then refills during peak times. Because animals do drink more at certain times of day. Ours drink more at feeding time naturally. During warm days they tend to lay down, and only drink when getting up. But winter months, they drink during eating times, so sometimes during the night, they are laying down. Figure a cow drinks 30gallons a day on average. Now figure when she might consume it, it would tend to be during the day, during the morning feeding, and night feeding. The temperature is warmer during the day, while at night naturally it is colder, and that is sometimes when pipes freeze more often. Too bad there wasn't a way to circulate water at a certain temperature out of some tank that stays at 50 degrees. Water circulates through the pipe into the tank. The main concern can also be that main water line. You can't circulate that, and that could be more of a problem over the water bowl line. Figure this, the water bowl line would be moving more, the main line would sit, before kicking on to refill the water bowl line.


But after seeing that pressure out of that line, when it moves, its going to move quite quickly. Tough to say what to do that would work the best. A basic pump that keeps the water moving, and doesn't want to overpower the well pump would work best. Something strong enough to move the water, and thats that.


Jeff

The backflow preventor would keep the system seperate from the rest of the water system. In my case, the water main comes into the milk room which is heated.

You have a point about the pressure but it is in an open system so the velocity of the water would increase. The pump is rated for 330GPH or 5.5GPM in a 1 in line would have the water 2.3 ft/sec. This might be too fast. Maybe I should look for a pump about 1/2 that size. If i use 3/4 pipe it would be it would be about 3 ft/sec. The only pressure increase would be cause by the friction of the pipe and the fittings. The higher the friction the more the pressure difference between the pump input vs. the output. Right????

There is one other thing to consider. Will the backflow preventor keep the rest of the system from not "telling" it needs to refill? I would think the system would need to be tied in (pressure switch) so it would turn on when needed. See the way my system is setup is as follows. The main line goes from the pump room to the milk house. I then have it going back in to the barn. I have a valve that I can turn off if I had to fix something, etc etc. If the pump was running enough to make the water move, more or less making it move might be enough. All your doing is circulating in a closed loop. If the entry point is on the corner of the closed loop, it shouldn't back flow in actually. What I was considering is to have a line run from the end of the water bowl line, back to where the elbow is from the milk house (last elbow that is part of the water bowl line itself). It should circulate in a loop, since the pump is "sucking" the water from the line, and pushing it back, and so on. The entry point to the water bowl line would have to be higher, and bigger than the return line, so it doesn't fill the return line first.

The best place for a backflow preventor might be on the barn side of the water switch. So as soon as the pressure goes down, it can turn on and refill the line. This is why I figure on a pump that simply circulates, vs actually pushing water along at a good rate.


Jeff

we wrap our windmill standpipes and exposed water lines with grain sacks that we save up throughout the year.very rarely and only if it gets very cold (-40 or lower) do we have a problem. you will need many layers.

You are absolutely correct, I was confused a bit until I checked out the bowls you are using. If you connect your system the way you have it drawn out in your diagram, especially with the water heater, you shouldnt have any trouble at all with your pipes, or valves freezing. As to the circulator pump building too much pressure, that really shouldnt be a problem, all they do is move the water which is under the line pressure, if your line pressure doesnt blow the lines, neither will the pump. It looks like you are in business to me.

We got started installing the water system. The heater and pump are install. This weekend, we hope to get the water bowls mounted and plumbed in. Plus need to run a new circuit for the heater and pump.

Here is a pic of what we have so far:

http://www.islefarms.com/pump.jpg

I've put in a frost-free Freedom Fountain. It uses a drain-back faucet to feed an insulated bowl, covered with a floating ball. The livestock pushes the ball with their nose in order to drink. This will be my first winter with it, but I put it in on the recommendation of a friend who now has two of them. She says they work great.

Mine is a two hole drinker, but they make one hole and four hole models. The price isn't a lot different between the models. You size them to the number of livestock drinking from them. They need a certain number drinking from them to keep fresh water coming in often enough.

An old thread here had a design that Ken in Minn came up with that was very similar except it also used a light bulb in the insulated section to keep it warm. The good part about Ken's was you could make it yourself.

You can get a frost-free horse drinker from http://www.horsedrinker.com/ It's only available as a single hole model. It also uses a drain-back valve.

The Freedom Fountain and the Horse Drinker use no electricity, so they'll work in remote locations.

Genebo
Paradise Farm

WELL!!!! It always seems as if something has to go wrong on a project that puts on the breaks... At least for a little while! :bash:

The kicker is that westfalia had shipped this to someone before (outline of the old shipping lable on the box) and the box i received it in was undammaged. Pretty sure that they shipped me a busted bowl to begin with!

http://www.islefarms.com/busted.jpg

yvonnes hubby, I agree with you. Marry has a good idea there. I think she will be just fine

If you are pumping water thru the lines, the lines won't freeze, but unless the bowls and valves are heated, they will freeze.

Unless you are in a pretty temperate climate that bareley gets below freezing?

Or the bowls and valves are heated or there is an enclosure around the water line and the valve and bottom of the bowl to keep some heat around the valve and bowl?

mary i use a heating tape called frostex it only warms the cold spots and i never have a problem unless its below 0 for a few days then the cups will freeze but not the waterlines
mink